Anti Americanism and Anti Europeanism!!

Not all American are anti-European by any means. The problem right now--for some Americans (including our leaders)--is that certain countries (particularly France) aren't falling into line to support the pending war vs. Iraq.

As for self-examination after 9/11/01, it might not have been a bad idea, but my fellow Americans aren't much for self-examination at any time. And the dominant mood back then was sadness and anger. Anyone who dared suggest self-examination was called a traitor...

well traitor is the nicest thing i have been called in some msn chats after WTC but it was exactly what people needed to do even if it could be hard thing to do.

But as i see it it have going from bad to worse i agreeing when people saying US acting like a big bully against its own allies.

and some can only see a conflict in black and white. Even in countries who support the war the people are against the war.

Here is my fears

1. AN attack against Iraq can trigger more terrorist attacks around the world.

2. AN attack can be what the terrorist want to gain more walking bombs and suicide terrorists to their lines.

3 An attack wont help much in long run nobody will love a country who just bombed your house and killed your relatives.


Other reason to my doubts is

The opposition of saddam Hussein havent even been asked but america seem eager to install their own hand picked govt after Saddam is gone. Afghanistan already seem forgotten by the US and UN and Europe have to clean up.

Afghanistan is not more democratic today really than it was before the Americans came with their bombs.


I can also questioning George Bush as president after i followed the election.

But i think its sad that the gap is bigger and wider than Grand Canyon continueing to be wider between Europe and USA. I think US and EU need eachother more than ever before.

I just wanted to welcome you to A2K Relay :-)

Relay, i agree completely with you that the United States and the European Union need one another. I also sadly share the belief that Americans did not take the opportunity after September 11th to examine how things came to this pass. I think many Americans have reacted badly to what they see as a condescension and an arrogance on the part of Europe, long before our current executive lunatic took the notion that he has to invade Iraq. With this now created as an issue in the United States, those who view Europe with scepticism and distrust are much less likely to view the governments of European nations favorably, especially when it seems that those governments do not support the policies of this administration. I do not support those policies, and i am glad that people all over the world oppose this war, and say so publicly. I also am quite cynical about the motives of the governments of France and Germany, both of which nations have made a good deal of cash selling any an all types of technologies to whoever has shown up, cash in hand.

But, entirely apart from the current anxiety with regard to a war in Iraq, I think there is an attitude of superiority too often expressed by Europeans which grates on Americans, and may secretly partake a good deal of envy. European nations once ruled nearly all of the earth. Today, no single nation there has any of its past military might, nor its past economic dominance. All of Europe together just manages to represent a production/consumer economy equivalent to the United States. All of Europe together, as things stand today, could not produce an equivalent military power. And there is resentment on the American side--Europe's economic good health (and despite occassional dips, those economies do well by their populations) has been, in large measure, achieved behind an American and British military shield. Any quick comparison of the military spending in the United States as compared to Germany over the last 50 years will show a huge discrepancy. So, many Americans are more than a little aggravated to hear European criticisms of the United States. Older Americans are very quick to say that we've pulled Europe out of two horrendous wars in which the irrational policies of her governments had landed them in the 20th century. And i know that many Europeans are disgusted by what they see as American hubris.

Let us hope that these issues may be resolved reasonably. I am sad to say, though, that i doubt that this will happen soon.

Thankyou very much
Tack så mycket :wink:

Setanta you have so right there i am suprised beacuse i thought i would be hacked into little pieces by americans in this forum too when i expressed what i belived in.

I never think war is a real solution to problems.

Amen to that!

Re: Anti Americanism and Anti Europeanism!!

Sure, and no woman gets raped who didn't ask for it by dressing seductively or acting flirtatious or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The notion that America should consider what it did to cause terrorists to target this country legitimizes terrorism as a tool. The fact that America or any nation has made mistakes does not justify the targeting of civilians by lunatics.

No, America should do no soul searching right now. In fact, the surest way to increase the rate of terrorist attacks around the world is to send a message to terrorists that their methods will achieve results. The message we need to send, the message we are working now to send, is that the only thing terrorism will achieve for terrorists is their own persecution and death, and if necessary, the destruction of anything they value or hold holy.

welcome relay, helmets and flak jackets advised.

Re: Anti Americanism and Anti Europeanism!!


I can't stand people who perpetuate this ridiculous way of thinking. My complaint boils down to a single sentence "The notion that America should consider what it did to cause terrorists to target this country legitimizs terrorism as a tool." Looking for answers does not legitimize terrorism.

Americans need to ask themselves why a large religious and cultural cross-section of the world hates them so much that they are willing to crash planes into buildings. People who belive otherwise are burying thier head in the sand and spreading ignorance. Do you really think that ignoring the realities of the world in order to avoid accepting any responsibility is the right course of action?

I remember Sept 11 well. Perhaps more than anything else, people wanted to know why. President Bush provided an answer when he said, "our enemies hate not our policies but our existence, the tolerance of openness and creative culture that defines us." This explanation is convenient and galvininizing for the American people, but whether this reflects the truth or not is another question.

September 11th is more like the tip of a very big iceberg than it is the work of a few isolated radicals. In the Middle East there is a general resentment for America that pervades almost every level of society. Terrorists are only the most extreme form of that resentment. Despite the words of President Bush, this resentment does not stem from hatred of American "creative culture" or "openness." In fact, contrary to Bush's words, many Middle Easterners point to specific American policies as sources of anger. They contend that America is guilty of double standards, hypocrisy, and cultural imperialism. It is easy for Americans to turn the issue into a clear-cut battle between good and evil instead of questioning whether American actions have fostered resentment in the Middle East. However, American foreign policy has had a hand in instigating resentment and hatred toward America. Americans can ignore this fact at their own peril.

Ignorance and close mindedness is never a good thing.

Ah yes, this is the site where that tired old adage that patience is a virtue comes home with a vengeance . . .

Will wonders never cease. I agree with Tres.

You'd think it wouldn't cause so much consternation among some when we at least wonder aloud why America is so hated. Geez.

I'll just check in and share my appreciation of Relay, Setanta and IronLionZion's views.

I will try to stay out of any name-calling and will try to avoid being seen as an arrogant European, devoid of understanding or appreciation of the good parts of the USA and its national characteristics.

While there is a certain widespread envy of the American economic success (historic - who knows what will happen if Bush continues his suicidal budget-setting), we Europeans tend to look at all arguments before coming to conclusions.

We are often frustrated with the American snap-decision to follow the path perceived as "Good" over "Evil" and expect others to agree to follow.

Europeans are far less religious than Americans (I can find attendance figures for religious establishments, e.g. churches, if you like) and tend to weigh up the balance of views rather than adopting a religious/right-or-wrong view of political decisions.

I know and like many Americans personally, both here in London and in the US, as well as on a2k and previously on abuzz. Not all Americans are like the stereotype above, of course.

What I found genuinely pathetic was the anti-French and anti-German sentiment which expressed itself in name-calling, following the decisions of the politicians of these countries not to support the US call for instant military action against Iraq.

Ambassadors and politicians of the USA did not give a good impression of maturity - they demeaned these highly rational nations with terms not far removed from the playground.

Until the USA, as a whole, gives the impression that it is prepared to see another side of the argument and listen before shouting its view, Europe will not respect its opinions fully. America's insularity is frightening to us, just as Europe's strangeness and remarkable mix of cultures and languages, which often contradict each other is frightening to America, which likes to sing one national song.

I would ask why is America so hated. Is it because of our present lunatic in the white house or does it predate him. If it does why? No generalities, specifics please.

Pete, i think your points are valid, but there is a dynamic here of both sides hearing only what the loudest mouths shout, and not seeing the entire picture. The United States is made up of many cultures and languages, as well. Two gentlemen with whom i served in the US Army were both raised in homes in which Norwegian was spoken, as it was throughout their regions--one was in North Dakota, and the other in Minnesota. German is still spoken in many regions, and German, Russian and Hungarian in Pennsylvania mining regions; Chinese, Vietnamese and other asian languages thrive and prosper in such ethnic neighborhoods. In fact, i would say that the Asians retain culture and language to a far greater extent than any other group except . . .

The Hispanics. Spanish is spoken all over this country. Before NAFTA, Latinos were to be found throughout the country as both legal and illegal migrant workers, and those willing to do nasty jobs Americans are slow to take spread across the landscape. Since NAFTA, there has been an explosive growth of Latino communities. Where i live in Central Ohio, Latinos fill almost all of the lower paying jobs (at $10/hour and up, pretty high-paying by their former standards), and this is not a region which traditionally attracted them. Most manufacturers of consumer goods put English and Spanish on packaging and in the user guides, simply because it makes good business sense. Smarter manufacturers are adding French.

You note the image of America as a deeply religious place. I rather think it is not so religious as it might appear to those whose view of the issue is formed from the loud ranting of the religious right. Many Americans have strong religious convictions; many of those same Americans want no part of the agenda of the religious right. I would also note that you're not taking notice of the right-wing catholics in Europe, who are especially preponderant in France and Spain.

On the American side, i would say that our view of Europe is also colored by media reports. "Dog bites man" is no headline; "Man bites dog" is a grabber. By extension, "The French like America" would be no headline, but "Chirac condemns American policy" is a grabber. And those here who bash the French or the Germans may have their closed-minds as a motivation, or they may be recalling the extent to which those nations are as guilty as our own in arming the tin-pot dictators of this world. Tony Blair may well be a hero to those in America who support a war in Iraq; but that by no means indicates that the majority of your fellow citizens support such a war. I am not convinced that Europeans are any more likely to "weigh up the balance of views rather than adopting a religious/right-or-wrong view of political decisions." You are conveniently ignoring German skin heads, and the strong anti-semitic (both anti-Jew and anti-Arab) streak in France, as well as your own National Front. Your papers are in the same headline business. "Majority of Americans go to church, and then return home to normal, peaceful lives" won't sell papers. "Religious right demands government funds" will.

On the whole, i'd say the proportion of lunatics and pig-headed adhereents to dogma within the United States population is just about the same as it is in the population of any European country. As flattering as the thought is, i would say we don't have a corner on lunacy here.

Why America is hated by who? Do you want specific reasons why they are hated by Middle Easterners, Europeans, or some other group?

Walter, i did not put a name to the hateful anti-semitic types in France--and the death of political organization does not mean the hate mongers suddenly went away. The same applies to England. As for the topic of religion, i was dealing with that as a separate issue, i did not tie the ultramontane catholics to the reactionary anti-semites. As a matter of fact, the ultramontanes are alive and well in France, as they have been since the days of the "non-juring" clergy who defied Napoleon. Spain is the bastion of conservatism in politics and religion, even if they have had the sense to dump the Falange, and get a new King. Spain was Napoleon's quagmire, and the true source of his downfall, not Russia. Not only did they resent his usurpation of the Bourbon monarchy and the installation of his brother Joseph, they had no interest in the "middle class" reforms he tried to import, and his treatment of the Pope simply turned the parish priests of Spain into the lower level leaders of the resistance movement. Religious conservatism in Spain has not changed since those days any more than has the strong ultramontane streak in France. I refrained from mentioning Ireland, because i'm descended from both Irish catholics and Irish protestants, but can you honestly say that Pete's contention about religious fervor in the US cannot be applied there? The Jews and the Palestinians are the only other two groups in the world who kill one another so vociferously from a religious starting point. Now that the violent protestant fanatics have discovered narco-terrorism, the ante has just been upped. Mostly my response to Pete is that one can only make these comparative statements about the US and Europe by ignoring the ordinary, level-headed people in the US and the fanatics in Europe. I stand by my analysis: the proportion of decent people in both regions is very likely the same, as is the proportion of bull goose loonies.