Venezuela Watch

I read that article blatham. I like the beginning of part 2. I also like the part about people getting job training, access to computers, education and big fat chickens at cost. I hope there's nothing behind it except helping people of the country to enable themselves.

I'm gonna go buy more gas. At citco.

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Amigo wrote:

I'll check out the IFJ story and who they are.

IFJ = International Federation of Journalists. The single major global defender of journalists' interest.

"I just read your post you refferd to and it told me nothing." -> You dont mind that Chavez does not respect the freedom of media, is in fact considered a threat to it?

Its pretty much a reliable litmus test on a ruler's democratic credentials to me... but sure, if freedom of media "tells you nothing", then, whatever...

Amigo wrote:

But this alone is not enough I'm only interested in the fact and cutting down on the bulls**t.

Well, then read up before posting why dont you? What is it with this, "huh I'm too lazy to check anything out or even to read back whats already written, so hey you guys - you tell me what I need to know, 'k, the 2-minute version, yeah" attitude? Able2Consume? SpoiledNLazyIsUs? American, are we?

Jesus.

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Lazy!? I'm a construction worker. I work 12 hour graveyard shifts and I'm a life long activist of freedom of the press. When I say activist I mean in the streets of downtown Los angeles in the middle of a riot activist. I hope your not judging Chavez as quickly as you've judged me. Because your totally wrong.

I'm in the street with the Journalist and the civil and human rights groups Before the headlines are written. Their there because were there. So I know how much headline politics are full of sh*t. I just wish everyone else did.

No, I don't want the two minute version. I want the one minute version but i'm not going to get it and I've already spent ten here. Back to the topic.

How many of these media incidences took place during the coup in april? Were talking idealogical Class warfare. Wide spread chaos, panic and violence in a short period of time. Who knows what the hell was going on. The headlines are not reliable in themselves.

What media outlets are owned by who?

What are there political and interest?

Do the people who own some of these meadia outlets have a economic interest in whether or not Chavez is in power and to what lengths are they willing to go in the use of these outlets?

Iv'e had to go through this more then once. Soon you may be asking me for information. Then I can call you a lazy Hungarian.

I'm already finding the usual suspects in these cases. Now it's time to see what the pro Chavez side has to say about the media. Gee, I wonder what the'll say???

www.williambowles.info/venezuala/2005/ven_media.html (the links not working. Just search " Twisted Venezuelan anti-Chaves media cought with their pants down"

Please note dates and sources. I am posting info for collective scrutiny. Not so you can scrutinize me.

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Search "ifex media conflict" and go to the story on the Chavez-Media conflict. Also search "Chavez media" and poke around and everything will become clearer.

"according to Venezuelan human rights lawyer Eve Golinger the link between the U.S. government and the and Venezuelan media go far beyond were personal freinships. She explained that the U.S. government funded National Endowment for Democracy and U.S. aid have provided several millions of dollars to private media outlets in Venezuela to help finance their anti-Chavez campaign."

The journalists being attacked are probably seen as traitors working for multi-billionaire owned western influenced (financed) media outlets (Search: Cisneros Bush Chavez) spreading propaganda in order to gain support or an excuse for the overthrow of Chavez. Chavez is the candidate of choice by the people which is why they took to the streets after that same western arm tried to take him out of power and the people put him back.

It is unfortunate that the media is being used as a massive propaganda machine in Venezuela and that the journalist are caught in the middle. Journalist are seen as traitors on both the pro and anti government sides. Now the cause of the violence is more clear. It is a revolution you know.

So you see nimh, If you read this, who is guilty of the "two minute version" and being "rudimentary". You did not take the time to find the story behind the headlines and jumped to a "rudimentary" conclusion. Who did not "read up before they posted". Now I know what you do not. If I would have listened to you I would now believe the same thing you believe about Chavez and the media. Nothing is black and white. Next time I read a headline "journalist attacked in Venezuela" you and many others will be thinking "that damn Chavez is against free media because he's a dictator" and I will be able to interpret it better. How many people read your post from the IFJ respect your opinion and are now misunderstood on whats really going on with chavez and the media.

All anybody has to do is search 'Chavez media' and the whole thin is there

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Quote:

Venezuela: Fumbling A Pop Up
The Pentagon has begun contingency planning for potential military conflict with Venezuela as part of a broad post-Iraq evaluation of strategic threats to the United States.

The planning has been precipitated by general and specific directives issued by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his civilian policy assistants.

Internal documents associated with the 2005 Quadrennial Defense Review (QDR) and preparation of the fiscal year 2008-2013 future defense plan identify five specific "threat" countries in three groups requiring "full-spectrum" planning.

The first group includes North Korea and Iran, both justified for their involvement in the development of weapons of mass destruction. China is listed as a "growing peer competitor" and threat of tomorrow. Syria and Venezuela are listed as "rogue nations."

http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2005/11/venezuela_fumbl.html#more

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I read in the Sueddeutsche yesterday that the ideology of Chavez is now colloquially dubbed "Narcissism-Leninism".

Not much of a substantive contribution to the discussion I admit, but it gave me a big laugh! So on-target, too.

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nimh

That's wonderful!

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I am going to come back to this thread at another time.

The above sentence was my crude method of bookmarking.

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Uh oh

Somebody warn Chavez

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Evo Morales of the Socialist party won the the vote for president of Bolivia. He has vowed to be Washington "nightmare". The election boast a 85% turnout.

We might as well start a South America watch thread. Bolivia is were Bectel tried to privatise water and they went apeshit.

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Huge natural gas reserves, too.

I understand that the CIA has set up a special program to train agents on coca chewing and has also taken onto their medical staff Michael Jackson's Epidermal Retinter. No need for language training is perceived.

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Ther are 11 elections coming up next year in South America. Nicaragua is next.

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blatham wrote:

The Heritage piece is a paradigm example of how a population gets "educated" to throw their support behind political and military incursions on another state. If and when we begin seeing much more of it (from 'think tanks' like Heritage, news outlets like Fox, etc which serve as the advance propaganda arm of the administration) we will know that action is imminent. That Chavez is in power as a consequence of a democratic election (and re-election) will become quite irrelevant. That he said something sexual about Rice, that he likes Castro, that he doesn't like unfettered US power/aggression, etc will trump all else. Not mentioned, of course, is the oil.

Adolf Hitler came to power in Germany in a similar election Blatham. Would you also have described those few perceptive voices in Europe that opposed him before the outbreak of war in similar terms?

So far your rhetoric here has been mere innuendo about supposed American intentions with respect to Venezuela. Not a word about the character of the Chavez government and the authoritarian structure it is attempting to impose on the people of this country. Why?

Do you admire Chavez? Do you believe the freedom and prosperity of Venezulans will - in any sustainable way - be increased by his actions? Do you believe he represents the promise for greater freedom and progress in the Western World? So far he has defined himself primarily by his opposition to the United States. Certainly his confused pronouncements about a "Bolivarian Revolution" don't paint a clear picture of anything. (Racial war was the principal feature iof the Bolivarian original.) What motivates you to these positions? If your distaste for the American monolith is so great, you could always return to B.C. Instead of the cheap and easy shots and innuendo about supposed U.S. retaliatory actions, how about a little analysis of the benefits to the Venezuelan people that Chavez will bring.

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Quote:

the authoritarian structure it is attempting to impose on the people of this country. Why?

Do you admire Chavez? Do you believe the freedom and prosperity of Venezulans will - in any sustainable way - be increased by his actions? Do you believe he represents the promise for greater freedom and progress in the Western World?

What has been South/Central America's influence or agency on the politics or economy or people of the US?

Now, reverse that question.

Has any South/Central American government assassinated an American president? The reverse IS true. Has any South/Central American government plotted and carried out the overthrow of an elected government in the US? The reverse IS true. Have any South/Central American governments funded or trained or supplied paramilitary death squads within the US? The reverse IS true.

Chavez presents no greater prospect for freedom in the western world. But he also presents an infinitesimally smaller threat to the usurpation of local national autonomy than does the US. The people there elected him. Twice. So, time for the US to just pack up and mind their own fukking business.

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blatham wrote:

Chavez presents no greater prospect for freedom in the western world. But he also presents an infinitesimally smaller threat to the usurpation of local national autonomy than does the US. The people there elected him. Twice. So, time for the US to just pack up and mind their own fukking business.

What does "usurpation of local autonomy really mean"? Certainly in WWII the Allies usurped local autonomy in Germany. I believe the UN finally usurped the local autonomy of the Rwandan government, as did NATO in Kosovo. Does "local autonomy" trump all other considerations in your view??? How does it compare to (say) freedom and democracy? Or merely the end of slaughter and violent oppression?

It is fairly obvious that Chavez is merely the latest manifestation of a long-standing Latin American political disease. Yet another Caudillo stirring up the masses with tales of imaginary external enemies while plundering the country and sowing the seeds of continuing political and economic delusion and turmoil. It is a very shopworn and tiresome thing, but it seems to work in that cultural soil. Peron's rhetoric against the British was hardly different from that of Chavez against the United States. Let's hope that the lingering effects of the Chavez tyranny will be less sadly comical and destructive than have been those of Peron.

Chavez needs the image of an hostile United States to rouse up and dupe a sufficient fraction of the Venezuelan people. We however have the right to protect ourselves from the consequences of his actions.

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Well george, you've managed to quite avoid the point made. South/Central America have damn near a century of reasons to be concerned with what America does down there and America has close to zero reason to be concerned about what South/Central America might do in the US.

Imagine the Chilean armed forces sending military forces into towns in California and bombing the **** out of them to get rid of the meth labs. Imagine them sending in covert agents trained to fund militias and helping to organize the assassination of the governor of California and the replacement of his government with another more aligned with Chilean corporations or military goals. Is it any bloody wonder you guys aren't much loved down there?

No. Local autonomy does NOT trump all other issues for me. But historically it counts as trump almost never for the US, if corporate and strategic interests are perceived to be involved.

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georgeob1 was wondering about blatham's feelings toward Chavez, so he wrote:

Do you admire Chavez?

I don't know about blatham, but I admire Chavez. And I despise Bush with every fibre of my being.

Is it possible to do a presidential swap?

No, I take that back. I couldn't subject those poor Venezuelan people to such outrageous punishment.

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gus

God damn I like the cut of your jib.

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blatham wrote:

Well george, you've managed to quite avoid the point made. South/Central America have damn near a century of reasons to be concerned with what America does down there and America has close to zero reason to be concerned about what South/Central America might do in the US.

I recognize that this is a stock point in the left wing litany, but it doesn't withstand close scrutiny. In Cuba and later in Nicaragua we have seen attempts to export Soviet expansoion and revolution. In the case of Cuba, this went as far as the positioning of nuclear armed missiles on that unfortunate island. We most certainly did and do have lreal strategic interests there. The difference oin our relative power and potential is perhaps the only meaningful for them to fear us more than the converse. However, there is no remedy for that.

You have persisted in evading the point about the merits of the Chavez regime and the "benefits" he will bring to that unfortunate country - and others if he gets his way.

Quote:

Is it any bloody wonder you guys aren't much loved down there?

Given the number of Central Americans immigrating to this country, I have a hard time believing the truth of this proposition.

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To despise Bush will not make me like all others who despise him.
To despise Chávez will not make me like all others who despise him.
Both men are despicable, IMHO.

Bush is an obvious adversary for the progressives everywhere.
Chávez speaks as if he were a progressive. He's nothing but an authoritarian populist. So he's even more dangerous, for he can fool good-willing progressives.

The anti-US rethoric sometimes sounds like chimes to my Latin American ears. But anti-US rethoric does not feed anyone or make anyone free.

Last elections in Venezuela were a mockery, when all the opposition retired, since all the process is controlled by Chávez cronies.
Groups of armed thugs -lumpenproletarians, we used to call them on my Marxist days- threaten every citizen who is outspoken against the caudillo (this reminds me so much of the Fascist Squadraccie!).
Economics have not gotten better (and in the medium run, subsidies to the poor & loyal will backlash against the whole Venezuelan economic system).
I shall say nothing about Chávez acting as a lap dog and puppet to Castro in Latin American diplomacy.

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