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Why would a perfect God have its creation suffer on Earth?

 
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2005 05:02 pm
Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:
This isn't a contradiction. It doesn't take a bible scholar to figure this out.

When reading the passages in context, Exodus 21:24, Lev. 24:20, and Deut. 19:21, it is clear that they are simply pointing out that the punishment should always fit the crime. These laws were given-- not to the people, but to the courts, the assemblies, judges, and priests of a theocracy.

In the New Testament we find Jesus in the role of a civil magistrate. He makes one thing clear just a few verses before: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matt. 5:17).

In verse 38 is when he goes on to say: "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

This is precisely what is expected of all Christians: to "turn the other cheek", not to take "the Law" into our own hands. It is for the law to punish justly, the punishment always fitting the crime ("eye for an eye"-- also, see Matt. 18:21-22).


So what you are saying is that it is up to the courts to sentence with these punishments? Is this your meaning of the punishment always fits the crime?

1. Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

2. Leviticus 24:16 "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death,"

3. Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

4. Exodus 21:15 "And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death."

5. Exodus 21:17 "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

6. Exodus 22:19 "Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death."

7. Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death."

8. Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death."

9. Mark 16:16 "He that believeth not, shall be damned."

10. Malachi 2:1-4 "And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name.... Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2005 11:31 pm
Nice one Rex, I chose a bad example and I conceed defeat on that example. A smack-down indeed. Smile

As the better-equiped mesquite points out, however, there are still plenty of examples of such contradictions in the bible.
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raheel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 05:03 am
suffering is either the cause of a free will or nature (in which case God cannot be blamed)

or caused by God (which is a test for us- or he has some other reason for it- such as punishment)
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 05:35 am
raheel

How on earth do you come to the conclusions that;

a) God is not responsible for free will ?
b) God is not responsible for nature ?
c) God can cause things ?
d) Suffering is a test ?
e) God has reasons ?
f) God punishes ?
g) gods exist ?
h) no other causes of suffereing are possible ?
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 05:58 am
a)We make concious decisions, we are the ones who make these choices, and we are the ones who often make the wrong ones.
b)God has set up an ecosystem that sustains us for the time we spend on this earth. That ecosystem from time to time makes natural disasters (that's what we call them anyways)
c)God's will was the cause, our physical world is the effect
d)God tests our love for him, Satan tempts our love
e)this one, noone can answer(to my knowledge)
f)those who don't recognize him as their creator and preservator
g)how do you come to the conclusion he doesn't exist?
h)we have been put in a world of suffering, what makes a difference is how we choose to deal with it.

Quote:
So what you are saying is that it is up to the courts to sentence with these punishments? Is this your meaning of the punishment always fits the crime?

1. Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

2. Leviticus 24:16 "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death,"

3. Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

4. Exodus 21:15 "And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death."

5. Exodus 21:17 "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

6. Exodus 22:19 "Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death."

7. Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death."

8. Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death."

9. Mark 16:16 "He that believeth not, shall be damned."

10. Malachi 2:1-4 "And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name.... Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.


Indeed they fit the crime, turn your back to the will of God and unless repentence is utilized, he shall turn his back to you.
0 Replies
 
raheel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 07:00 am
Eorl wrote:
raheel

How on earth do you come to the conclusions that;

a) God is not responsible for free will ?


he is responsible for free will- but he cannot interfere with free will

anything that comes out of free will should be blamed on the person

Eorl wrote:
b) God is not responsible for nature ?


he is- but again he cannot interfere

Eorl wrote:

c) God can cause things ?
e) God has reasons ?
f) God punishes ?
g) gods exist ?


all these questions are similar.

i am a muslim and belive in the Quran and Allah.

Eorl wrote:

d) Suffering is a test ?


i believe that this life is a test and that suffering is a test to see how i cope.

e.g. if i suffer will i lose my faith in God or will i stick with it.

also some suffering can help us grow as human beings and become better people.

Eorl wrote:
h) no other causes of suffereing are possible ?


can you suggest any?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 07:31 am
raheel, the words "believe" and "suggest" from your last few lines seem to be the missing components from your previous post.

You gave two very simple alternatives and allowed no other possibilities. How can you claim to know these things?

Thunder, just to clarify, why exactly should all cheeky children be killed?
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 10:36 am
Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother...it's one of the commandments. We don't kill the children, god is the one who punishes people.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 10:50 am
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Indeed they fit the crime, turn your back to the will of God and unless repentence is utilized, he shall turn his back to you.


I cannot tell if you were trying to be cute or if you were actually serious.

Look at this one again.

Quote:
3. Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."


My question to Rex was "should the courts sentence with these punishments?"

Keep in mind that repentence carries little weight with courts.

Which day is Sabbath by the way, Saturday, Sunday, or some other?

It is this insistance by some on the right to blend their belief system into our legal system that disturbs me the most.
0 Replies
 
raheel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 11:33 am
Eorl wrote:

You gave two very simple alternatives and allowed no other possibilities. How can you claim to know these things?


first of all evil and suffering in the world is only a problem if we believe in the God of Classical Theism.

that is why the God i was talking about can 'punish', 'reason' and 'cause things'.

also- there is no other possibility for suffering- unless you count metaphysical such as fear of death... but i would categorise this with nature.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 11:45 am
I am late to this thread but I think you have all overlooked the OFTEN overlooked **** happens clause in the Universal Handbook.
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 12:47 pm
Do you have a reference for that clause?
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 12:59 pm
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother...it's one of the commandments. We don't kill the children, god is the one who punishes people.


Yes, according to the Bible, God does plenty of that. However, you congratulated Rex for writing this.

Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:
When reading the passages in context, Exodus 21:24, Lev. 24:20, and Deut. 19:21, it is clear that they are simply pointing out that the punishment should always fit the crime. These laws were given-- not to the people, but to the courts, the assemblies, judges, and priests of a theocracy. ...

This is precisely what is expected of all Christians: to "turn the other cheek", not to take "the Law" into our own hands. It is for the law to punish justly, the punishment always fitting the crime ("eye for an eye"-- also, see Matt. 18:21-22).


Did you not understand what he wrote?
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 06:21 am
I understood, we don't live in a theocracy. Our rule of law is not one of the Bible. It is in some ways similar, but it is not supposed to be based on a religion, rather on a principle of freedom of life, religion, etc. If we were all christians, then we would all live under the law of the bible.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2005 03:28 pm
Why would a perfect god have one nation of people slaughter another?

How can a god be perfect if he is jealous, selfish, bad tempered and vengeful?

Maybe we have our values all screwed up and we should use gods behavior as our example.

But then, after looking at Iraq, perhaps we are.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Apr, 2005 05:57 am
Quote:
But then, after looking at Iraq, perhaps we are.


???...what is that supposed to mean?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 03:56 pm
Throughout most of the Bible gods solution to problems is to kill people. We see that from the first to the last book of the Bible.

How does god in the Bible behave? Obey me; follow my laws; praise me.

If not I will kill you; I will kill your women and children; I will kill your animals; I will destroy your civilization. And if that is not enough I will kill your soul.

Iraq is a problem. It's not doing what we want. It's not cooperating us. It has oil. So lets make up a reason to invade the country, kill tens of thousands of people and install a government that will look after our self interest.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 05:58 am
Actually, I'm pretty sure that it is doing a little better than when Saddam was in power. My cousin is in Iraq, and he told me that 95 percent of the people there, want us there. The other 5 percent are loyal to either Saddam or other terrorists.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 03:26 pm
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 12:40 pm
Actually, those are very low numbers.
0 Replies
 
 

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