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Why would a perfect God have its creation suffer on Earth?

 
 
Ray
 
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2005 10:43 am
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Jer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2005 10:45 am
Entertainment!? ...like a globe-sized broadcast of survivor...but instead of calling it "reality television" it's just called "reality".

What do you think?
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Ray
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2005 11:11 am
I don't know, but I don't believe that God, if there is one, is "perfect" in human definition.
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Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2005 12:10 pm
Because the only way a human grows - intellectually; spiritually; emotionally; psychologically; physically; etcetera, is through suffering.
Perfect contentment is pointless.
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Sanctuary
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2005 04:01 pm
I do not believe in God. Nor any God. Or Goddess. Or any form of higher power what-so-ever.

That said, my sister is a Missionary (Christian), and I asked her this very same question. Her answer:

What is the point of such a creation if you are going to make life a breeze for it? The reason there is suffering, violence, hardships, grief, etc., etc., is to test us. If we are true to God through all this, then we are deserving of his rewards. However, if we become sucked into such negativity, A.K.A. sin, then we have lost our faith.

God, acording to my sister, made good and evil so that he could know who was true.

And, though the answer (or question) has absolutely no affect on me what-so-ever, this is by far the most intelligent answer I've yet to hear on the topic.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2005 05:43 pm
What would Utopia be like . . . where everyone was happy all day long . . . where there were no situations to ponder and grow from . . . where there were no debates or conflicts . . . where people never died.

Lady Citizen of Utopia. "Good morning, honey! Another day in paradise."

Gentleman Citize: "Yes dear, another day in Utopia.

<twiddle thumbs>

"Nice day."

"Yep, nice day."

<twiddle thumbs>
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Ray
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 12:23 am
If He is perfect, couldn't he make us all "true"?

Quote:
What would Utopia be like . . . where everyone was happy all day long . . . where there were no situations to ponder and grow from . . . where there were no debates or conflicts . . . where people never died.

Lady Citizen of Utopia. "Good morning, honey! Another day in paradise."

Gentleman Citize: "Yes dear, another day in Utopia.

<twiddle thumbs>

"Nice day."

"Yep, nice day."

<twiddle thumbs>


If they're happy, and no one is harmed, then I'd say it's great. I think it'd would be unreal for us, because we are not used to it, and we would think that we would not be happy in such a place, but if everyone's happy and righteous, then the argument would be false. Then again, what is happiness....
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 12:23 am
If He is perfect, couldn't he make us all "true"?

Quote:
What would Utopia be like . . . where everyone was happy all day long . . . where there were no situations to ponder and grow from . . . where there were no debates or conflicts . . . where people never died.

Lady Citizen of Utopia. "Good morning, honey! Another day in paradise."

Gentleman Citize: "Yes dear, another day in Utopia.

<twiddle thumbs>

"Nice day."

"Yep, nice day."

<twiddle thumbs>


If they're happy, and no one is harmed, then I'd say it's great. I think it'd would be unreal for us, because we are not used to it, and we would think that we would not be happy in such a place, but if everyone's happy and righteous, then the argument would be false. Then again, what is happiness....
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 12:30 am
How would you know happiness (and appreciate happiness when you have it) if you have never experienced unhappiness?
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Ray
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 12:36 am
If He is perfect, then shouldn't he be able to make us appreciate happiness?

This must be frustrating you but thanks for trying to shed some light Very Happy
0 Replies
 
howarddygo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 03:11 am
Let me state two points and change your question a little bit...I think an answer of sorts will pop out.

Points:
1. There can be only one perfect being (using Anselm's "that than which nothing greater can be thought" and "that which is greater than can be thought" as the names of God to arrive at this idea of only one perfect being).
2. Quoting some text I can't recall: "The best man is he who perfects himself the most; the happiest man is he who thinks he perfects himself the most." As we are imperfect, we are left to try to become better (which many of us do) or believe that we are succeeding in doing so (and there are a lot of people who succeed in this or succeed in deluding themselves in this).

So, here's the question:
If you were a parent who knew that becoming better (ever closer to perfect) is what truly mattered (even if it is a useless/impotent passion as Sartre said), would you like to ensure that your child received 100% protection (never once getting hurt or having to learn from a mistake) or would you give enough resources to your child to survive and let them fend for themselves?
0 Replies
 
material girl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 03:23 am
So if I sin or am violent etc would I be seen as good because Im giving people an opportunity to be tested?

Sounds like people are just making up excuses for God letting bad things happen.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 03:30 am
It's the grand design.

God is not "letting bad things happen." God is not making us suffer. God is allowing each and every one of us to exercise our free will.
0 Replies
 
howarddygo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 03:35 am
Good points.

Allow me to clarify by qualification: causing people pain on purpose is a cruel thing if the purpose is malevolent. Allowing (not causing) things to happen can be backed by benevolence. That's the key here, the motive behind it all (and a passive letting it be not an active making it happen). It's not an excuse, it's a reason. An excuse is to get out of a problem you didn't intend. A reason is an explanation why you intended it. The whole point here is that it isn't backed by active malevolence but by passive benevolence.

I am sure everyone has allowed (not proactively make it happen, but passively let it happen) a few cruel things in life to happen because it was clear that it was for the good of someone else. There are times when you actually allow a loved one to do something stupid because that's the only way they'll learn.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 07:47 am
Ray wrote:
If He is perfect, then shouldn't he be able to make us appreciate happiness?

This must be frustrating you but thanks for trying to shed some light Very Happy

Hmmm,
You seem to be missing the point.
He does make us appreciate happiness.
That is one result of suffering.
There are people who are perfectly happy. As far as I can tell, they are mentally incompetent or deranged. In other words, they are happy because parts of their intellectual/emotional system is not working as it should.
Reverse the question.
What would be the point of a perfectly happy and content existence?
0 Replies
 
duce
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 08:31 am
Have you ever wanted to be Loved?

If so, don't you want to be the person the other CHOSE?

The religous refer to it as Free Will
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 05:43 pm
Quote:
Hmmm,
You seem to be missing the point.
He does make us appreciate happiness.
That is one result of suffering.
There are people who are perfectly happy. As far as I can tell, they are mentally incompetent or deranged. In other words, they are happy because parts of their intellectual/emotional system is not working as it should.


There are a lot of other people who are not happy and who were or are suffering.

Can one appreciate happiness without suffering? I don't know, but if He is perfect, He can create us as such a being that can appreciate happiness without having to suffer.

My point is this: Why would He want us to be "tested". If he is perfect in the sense that He is able to do anything (which means within and beyond the scope of human imagination), He doesn't need to test us.
0 Replies
 
howarddygo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 06:12 pm
Yes, God doesn't need to test us. We are the ones that need to be tested.

Have you ever had somethin come easily for you? You'll probably find the pleasure of it short lived.

There is the basic happiness that belongs to that of an animal that has no higher form of awareness. Is this what you are looking for?

Try to picture what it would be like to be pefectly happy with the awarenss and free will being part of it. We want the hardship sometimes.

Did anyone see the Twilight Zone where a gambler keeps winning every game and bet. He eventually loses the joy of gambling. He finally figures that he is in Heaven and asks to be taken to the other place so he can have real fun. He is then asked, "What makes you think you aren't already in the other place?"

A person needs to be tested, pushed to become better. And, with betterment comes a higher form of happiness.
0 Replies
 
howarddygo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 06:17 pm
Yes, God doesn't need to test us. We are the ones that need to be tested.

Have you ever had something come easily for you? You'll probably find the pleasure of it short lived.

There is the basic happiness that belongs to that of an animal that has no higher form of awareness. I doubt this is what you are looking for.

A higher form of happiness goes with free will and a higher form of awareness to appreciate happiness and free will.

Try to picture what it would be like to be pefectly happy with the awarenss and free will being part of it. It will include the idea of growth. And growth requires tensions, pushing and pulling, to make it happen properly. We want (if not just need) the hardship sometimes.

Did anyone see the Twilight Zone episode where a gambler keeps winning every game and bet. He eventually loses the joy of gambling. He finally figures that he is in Heaven and asks to be taken to the other place so he can have real fun. He is then asked, "What makes you think you aren't already in the other place?"

A person needs to be tested, pushed to become better. And, with betterment comes a higher form of happiness.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2005 06:24 pm
This is how Mark Twain addressed the question.

Quote:
Chapter 1
Little Bessie Would Assist Providence

Little Bessie was nearly three years old. She was a good child, and not shallow, not frivolous, but meditative and thoughtful, and much given to thinking out the reasons of things and trying to make them harmonise with results. One day she said --

"Mamma, why is there so much pain and sorrow and suffering? What is it all for?"

It was an easy question, and mamma had no difficulty in answering it:

"It is for our good, my child. In His wisdom and mercy the Lord sends us these afflictions to discipline us and make us better."

"Is it He that sends them?"

"Yes."

"Does He send all of them, mamma?"

"Yes, dear, all of them. None of them comes by accident; He alone sends them, and always out of love for us, and to make us better."

"Isn't it strange!"

"Strange? Why, no, I have never thought of it in that way. I have not heard any one call it strange before. It has always seemed natural and right to me, and wise and most kindly and merciful."

"Who first thought of it like that, mamma? Was it you?"

"Oh, no, child, I was taught it."

"Who taught you so, mamma?"

"Why, really, I don't know -- I can't remember. My mother, I suppose; or the preacher. But it's a thing that everybody knows."

"Well, anyway, it does seem strange. Did He give Billy Norris the typhus?"

"Yes."

"What for?"

"Why, to discipline him and make him good."

"But he died, mamma, and so it couldn't make him good."

"Well, then, I suppose it was for some other reason. We know it was a good reason, whatever it was."

"What do you think it was, mamma?"

"Oh, you ask so many questions! I think; it was to discipline his parents."

"Well, then, it wasn't fair, mamma. Why should his life be taken away for their sake, when he wasn't doing anything?"

"Oh, I don't know! I only know it was for a good and wise and merciful reason."

"What reason, mamma?"

"I think -- I think -- well, it was a judgment; it was to punish them for some sin they had committed."

"But he was the one that was punished, mamma. Was that right?"

"Certainly, certainly. He does nothing that isn't right and wise and merciful. You can't understand these things now, dear, but when you are grown up you will understand them, and then you will see that they are just and wise."

After a pause:

"Did He make the roof fall in on the stranger that was trying to save the crippled old woman from the fire, mamma?"

"Yes, my child. Wait! Don't ask me why, because I don't know. I only know it was to discipline some one, or be a judgment upon somebody, or to show His power."

"That drunken man that stuck a pitchfork into Mrs. Welch's baby when -- "

"Never mind about it, you needn't go into particulars; it was as to discipline the child -- that much is certain, anyway."

"Mamma, Mr. Burgess said in his sermon that billions of little creatures are sent into us to give us cholera, and typhoid, and lockjaw, and more than a thousand other sicknesses and -- mamma, does He send them?"

"Oh, certainly, child, certainly. Of course."

"What for?"

"Oh, to discipline us! haven't I told you so, over and over again?"

"It's awful cruel, mamma! And silly! and if I -- "

"Hush, oh hush! do you want to bring the lightning?"

"You know the lightning did come last week, mamma, and struck the new church, and burnt it down. Was it to discipline the church?"

(Wearily). "Oh, I suppose so."

"But it killed a hog that wasn't doing anything. Was it to discipline the hog, mamma?"

"Dear child, don't you want to run out and play a while? If you would like to -- "

"Mama, only think! Mr. Hollister says there isn't a bird or fish or reptile or any other animal that hasn't got an enemy that Providence has sent to bite it and chase it and pester it, and kill it, and suck; its blood and discipline it and make it good and religious. Is that true, mother -- because if it is true, why did Mr. Hollister laugh at it?"

"That Hollister is a scandalous person, and I don't want you to listen to anything he says."

"Why, mamma, he is very interesting, and I think he tries to be good. He says the wasps catch spiders and cram them down into their nests in the ground -- alive, mamma! -- and there they live and suffer days and days and days, and the hungry little wasps chewing their legs and gnawing into their bellies all the time, to make them good and religious and praise God for His infinite mercies. I think Mr. Hollister is just lovely, and ever so kind; for when I asked him if he would treat a spider like that, he said he hoped to be damned if he would; and then he -- "

"My child! oh, do for goodness' sake -- "

"And mamma, he says the spider is appointed to catch the fly, and drive her fangs into his bowels, and suck and suck and suck his blood, to discipline him and make him a Christian; and whenever the fly buzzes his wings with the pain and misery of it, you can see by the spider's grateful eye that she is thanking the Giver of All Good for -- well, she's saving grace, as he says; and also, he -- "

"Oh, aren't you ever going to get tired chattering! If you want to go out and play -- "

"Mama, he says himself that all troubles and pains and miseries and rotten diseases and horrors and villainies are sent to us in mercy and kindness to discipline us; and he says it is the duty of every father and mother to help Providence, every way they can; and says they can't do it by just scolding and whipping, for that won't answer, it is weak and no good -- Providence's way is best, and it is every parent's duty and every person's duty to help discipline everybody, and cripple them and kill them, and starve them, and freeze them, and rot them with diseases, and lead them into murder and theft and dishonor and disgrace; and he says Providence's invention for disciplining us and the animals is the very brightest idea that ever was, and not even an idiot could get up anything shinier. Mamma, brother Eddie needs disciplining, right away: and I know where you can get the smallpox for him, and the itch, and the diphtheria, and bone-rot, and heart disease, and consumption, and -- Dear mamma, have you fainted! I will run and bring help! Now this comes of staying in town this hot weather."

Little Bessie
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