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Nemesis strikes carpetbagger Keyes

 
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 01:23 pm
CoastalRat wrote:
My oldest is now 18. I no longer have an obligation to support him. I love him dearly and will support him no matter what he does. <snip> She was an adult so what is the problem?


The problem seems to not be about finances, CoastalRat, but that Mr. Keyes does not seem to love his daughter the way you say you love your son.

Quote:
Maya Keyes is looking for answers to all those conservatives who e-mail her about how she's going to burn in hell and to all those liberals who e-mail her about how she's a traitor because she won't disavow her father. And then there are the people who think she's a whiny brat, "that I'm immature for thinking that I want my parents to talk to me."


http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/news/editorial/10933594.htm

A very interesting young woman.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 01:24 pm
Something tells me that if you asked her dad he would tell you he still loves her because she is his daughter. He just does not approve of her choice of lifestyle and will not support her because of it.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 01:28 pm
Is carpetbagging a bad thing?
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 01:29 pm
ehBeth wrote:
CoastalRat wrote:
My oldest is now 18. I no longer have an obligation to support him. I love him dearly and will support him no matter what he does. <snip> She was an adult so what is the problem?


The problem seems to not be about finances, CoastalRat, but that Mr. Keyes does not seem to love his daughter the way you say you love your son.

Quote:
Maya Keyes is looking for answers to all those conservatives who e-mail her about how she's going to burn in hell and to all those liberals who e-mail her about how she's a traitor because she won't disavow her father. And then there are the people who think she's a whiny brat, "that I'm immature for thinking that I want my parents to talk to me."


http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/news/editorial/10933594.htm

A very interesting young woman.


When I say support I am not specifically speaking financial support. And we are in total agreement about Mr. Keyes if he is not speaking to her and such. IF he refuses to even speak to her, then he is, as has been stated earlier, a "giant prick". Because she is still his daughter. Thus we have a totally different issue than what I have been writing about, which was strictly his right to kick her out for whatever reason he chooses once she is 18.

So it looks like we have some agreement here ehBeth. Dang, just when I was worried I would never escape this thread. Laughing
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 01:31 pm
After reading that, what I come away with is even more respect for Barack Obama. I mean I know he was going to win anyway, maybe something else would have happened if it were a close race -- but evidently this was known since last fall, and think of the political hay that could've been made. But it wasn't.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 01:39 pm
I thought the same thing, soz. The info was there to out the young woman by Obama's team. Wasn't done. Definitely went up in my estimation.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 01:54 pm
I can't agree more. You gotta respect the man for that.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 02:28 pm
Through the Points Foundation, many gays have come forward to contribute to Maya's education. That's also family.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 02:54 pm
Not quite the same as having the dad she loves in her life, but you're right, Lightwizard.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 03:07 pm
Which ties in to a study which is getting enormous coverage here in Canada.


Quote:
Teenagers are more likely to be depressed if they experience changes in relationships with fathers, a new Statistics Canada study finds.

"Young people who reported that their relationship with their father had increased in closeness, understanding and affection over time were more likely to have lower scores of symptoms of depression at ages 16 and 17, compared with young people who responded that their relationship got worse," the study, released Wednesday, reported.

Changes in relationships with mothers over time were not linked to symptoms of depression at the age of 16 and 17, although the study did show that young people who were close to their mothers at the age of 14 and 15 had lower scores of depression at the age of 16 and 17.

<snip>

Particularly, changes in the relationship with fathers and with their friends contributed to these depressive symptoms.


right edge link :wink:

Dads are important.
Just in case anyone doubted it.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 03:15 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Is carpetbagging a bad thing?

Well, according to Alan Keyes, it was a very bad thing when Hillary Clinton did it, not a bad thing at all when Alan Keyes did it.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 03:26 pm
Personally, I thought it a bad thing when they both did it.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 03:27 pm
The question is right now who alienated who? It's pretty clear it's headed in the direction of Keyes alienating his daughter because of her sexuality and based on his moral dogmas which, in the opinion of many including some conservatives, is misguided. It has nothing to do with the parent's "privelege" of paying for or not paying for her education. It looks to me like the parents told her they would pay for her education and then went back on their word -- they certainly can afford it. I suppose they foolishly believe it will change her. Strawman arguments are easily set afire. Hypocrisy takes many forms, nearly all of them are unfortunate ironies that making excuses for is just weak rationalization.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 06:49 pm
CoastalRat, this isnt actually meant as a cheap shot/provocation, though I suppose it is kinda:

If a conservative Muslim father feels that according to his religion and moral standards, it is a sin for a woman to appear without a headscarf (or veil or whatever) - when he tells his 18-year old daughter that she is either to live according to his rules, with headscarf, or to move out and find and fund her own way in life - would that too just be "telling a grown child that they are on their own due to the choices they have made"? Would she too be "nothing more than a spoiled brat" if she had expected that her father would tolerate her presence in the house even if she chose to live without headscarf?

(I acknowledge your later, fair and sincere posts - I'm just wondering how (far) the criterion applies - probably just because its alien to me. I can not imagine anything so bad that it would lead me to refuse a son or daughter of mine to stay in my house, or to support them ... perhaps if they were to use crack, steal ... but nothing in the realm of "immoral" - its just very far away from me, hence the ... questions/wondering how far the logic would go, or something.)

CoastalRat wrote:
Something tells me that if you asked her dad he would tell you he still loves her because she is his daughter. He just does not approve of her choice of lifestyle and will not support her because of it.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 09:31 am
The fact is they are confronted with imagining the sexual act involved with the Lesbianism when the daughter would have an equal problem with imagining her parents having sex. It's the same old story of sex between consenting adults not being anyone's business but the two involved. The Medievalist still see sex as dirty and I can't help believing they even believe it is dirty when they perform it, confined only to the missionary position and to conceive children. Yeah, right -- I suppose Alan and his wife never have illicit sex, at least in the view of the most deeply fundamental, dogmatically religious minds. Control freaks? I believe so.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 07:26 am
nimh wrote:
CoastalRat, this isnt actually meant as a cheap shot/provocation, though I suppose it is kinda:

If a conservative Muslim father feels that according to his religion and moral standards, it is a sin for a woman to appear without a headscarf (or veil or whatever) - when he tells his 18-year old daughter that she is either to live according to his rules, with headscarf, or to move out and find and fund her own way in life - would that too just be "telling a grown child that they are on their own due to the choices they have made"? Would she too be "nothing more than a spoiled brat" if she had expected that her father would tolerate her presence in the house even if she chose to live without headscarf?

(I acknowledge your later, fair and sincere posts - I'm just wondering how (far) the criterion applies - probably just because its alien to me. I can not imagine anything so bad that it would lead me to refuse a son or daughter of mine to stay in my house, or to support them ... perhaps if they were to use crack, steal ... but nothing in the realm of "immoral" - its just very far away from me, hence the ... questions/wondering how far the logic would go, or something.)

CoastalRat wrote:
Something tells me that if you asked her dad he would tell you he still loves her because she is his daughter. He just does not approve of her choice of lifestyle and will not support her because of it.


I knew I shouldn't have come back to this thread. I keep reading what y'all keep writing and what I read is that y'all think a parent has some sort of obligation to let their kids live with them forever and sponge off mom and dad to their heart's content, regardless of their lifestyle choices or anything else. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.

Believe it or not, morality is important. Now I do not pretend (and neither should you) to know all the details in the Keyes family concerning this situation. As I have stated, there is nothing my children could do to make me stop loving them and to reject them. If Alan Keyes feels otherwise, then I must admit I don't understand. But, if my grown children wish to live under my roof and have me pay for their education, food and whatever else, then they will abide by my rules while living at home.

It is against my moral nature for a couple to engage is sex outside of marriage. So my home is off limits for that. Allowing it would be tantamount to saying it is ok. In your example, a muslim man has every right to tell his grown daughter to move out, for whatever reason he wishes. I don't care if he just gets up one day and says he is tired of her wearing blue dresses all the time. He has that right. He is not destroying her life by doing so. I have know people who have made their children move out within months of their high school graduation (a bit extreme if you ask me, but they had that right). Many people I know have refused to finance their children's higher education (my wife's family for one) without it negatively impacting their children. They manage just fine financing their own education.

So again, regardless of why he kicked her out, it certainly did not and will not destroy her dreams or whatever (can't remember the exact wording of that post, which is all I was commenting on when this whole thing began). Her dreams are still achievable, just without the silver spoon she has had stuck in her mouth all her life. Big deal. People succeed in much worse scenerios.

I will not fault the Keyes' for what they have done. I don't think they did it to try to change her. I think they did it because their beliefs make it impossible to support a lifestyle they see as sinful. While you and I may have handled things differently, they chose to handle it this way. So be it.

Now, if you want to talk about his being a carpetbagger, then I totally agree with the other sentiments expressed here. It was wrong for Hilary and it was wrong when Keyes tried it. And if he condemned Hilary for doing it, then he is worse because his doing it makes him a hypocrite on top of it.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 07:34 am
Oh, I forgot something Nimh. Just so we are clear on this. Even though morally, I believe homosexuality is wrong, if my son told me he was gay, I would not automatically kick him out as Mr. Keyes seems to have done. But he would be required to abide by the same rules while in my home as any other person/guest. Which means no unmarried sex. Call me old fashioned, out of step with the times, or whatever. Maybe even moral. But I believe in upholding my beliefs. I believe there is a very defined line between right or wrong.

Oh, and I didn't think your post was provocative. I never mind explaining my views when someone is honestly interested in understanding where I am coming from as opposed to asking in order to poke fun at views different from their own. So never worry about asking me an honest question. I like em. hehehe
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 07:45 am
Here's one, coastal - Are you from the Moon?
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 07:49 am
snood wrote:
Here's one, coastal - Are you from the Moon?


No, I'm pretty sure I am not. Although, in all honesty, since I was so young at the time of my birth, I really could not say for sure. My parents claim I was born here on earth in a place called Frederick, Maryland, buy one never knows for sure, do they?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 02:31 pm
Thank you for your honest answer, CoastalRat. I can not identify with the principles you describe, but you've been very straightforward about them.
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