Niccolo Machiavelli and the qualities of a prince

Tupac
It doesn't matter. What does matter is how machiavelli would view tupac shakur. Little known is that he reinvented himself, just before his death, as Makavelli.

I think Hitler would cut the mustard with Machiavelli, except at his end.

The points I remember are-- use your own troops. Don't hire mercenaries. So you have enhanced loyalty.

Try to be loved--but if you can't achieve love AND fear--go for fear. Hitler had this down pat.

When annexing--either 1) devastate 2) occupy or 3) (I think) set up an oligarchy--(put the rich guys in business, and they will run the place as you wish to line their pockets.).. I think (I could be wrong) wasn't Hitler working on devastation in most locations?

The Prince has many points-- Can't remember or cover them all--but really anticipating people's opinions and additions here.


May be back with more...

Hi, Chris. Welcome to A2K. You'll find a lot of quite erudie people here. I'm not one of them.

Nicolò Machiavelli, I think, has been much maligned and much misunderstood by contemporary (contemporary to us, I mean, not to him) commentators. In the begining he was a supporter of republican philosophies in Firenze of the Renaissance. His dedication of The Prince to Lorenzo di' Medici can be seen in only one of two ways -- either it was a last ditch sycophancy to save his own skin or else it was meant as a satire on the type of rule that the Medici family personified. Machiavelli had been an enemy of the Medicis for most of his life. Both Spinoza and Rousseau considered the book a satire and insisted that Machiavelli had never gone back on his earlier beliefs.

Whether he was a satirist or a cynic is for each reader to decide. But even assuming that The Prince is something other than a satire , I doubt that Machiavelli would have approved of Hitler or Hitler's methods. He would have seen that Hitler's brand of despotism was bound to be self-defeating in the long run. One does not gain new allies, nor retain the trust of those allies one has, by attempts to exterminate a sizeable percentage of the people of the continent in which one operates.

<note> For my part, I was taking the book at face value.

I think the overwhelming opinion is that Machiavelli was discussing the results--and clearly not moralizing about method.

It was more---how to get to Point B.

Not --how to get with Point B, maintaining integrity and my respect.

<just a bit of clarification>

I thought he was sort of moralising, working from the premise that the inevitable powerstrugle following the collapse of a powerstructure would always bring way more suffering than any action taken by the powers that be to remain in power. Thus any and alll means of staying in power would be justified. I've only read exerpts from the book though.

I read excerpts too long ago to remember, although it was presented to me in history classes beginning with college as a satire rather than a paeon to Lorenzo.

Saw a volume in a used book store of feminist essays on Machiavelli. Would have bought it if I had money.

I think Machiavelli would have at once admired and despised him.
He would have got into Machiavelli's good books by bringing the german people together, uniting them in one purpose.
As for the 'final solution' I think he would have had mixed feelings. Firstly, it had the effect of making the German people focused and united against a common enemy which in Machiavelli's eyes is a good thing, but I don't think any one could be walked into a holocaust exhibition and say, "Well, think of all the good it did" So I think Macchiavelli would have said Hitler was (until the Syphillis) a wise leader, but by no means a good one.
In this respect I think Niccoli would have hated Hitler and all the conquests, I think it is eminently clear from the prince that Niccoli thought Italy being run by the Italians (in his own time) was just a natural law that was not being observed. I think he would have seen this in Germany's actions and said something about nothing but pain coming from it.
Niccoli knows that you can't keep a country that doesn't recognise you as it's leader, doesn't like you and has arms with which to demonstrate that dislike.