Prostitution

And extremely wealthy free citizens at that.

C.I., I think the distinction between prostitution and the lying CEO is that prostitution is considered a victimless crime (certainly a misnomer at least in many aspects of the trade) whereas the telling of lies in order to conceal wrongdoing is not. If prostitution could not be seen as victimless, we could not be having this discussion.

Please elaborate Hazlitt - who are the victims, why is it a crime, etc?

BillW, I think the phrase "victimless crime" refers to some act, such as prostitution, that is on the books as a crime, but that is an act at which no one gets hurt except perhaps those who willingly engage in it.

But, you are inferring that there are victims, or am I wrong. This is what I was referring to in my question. Or, are there state created victims because it is made a crime?

Hazlitt, Like shaking hands or kissing?

I see what you mean, BillW. Let us say it this way. For some prostitutes there is likely to be some level of psychological damage that goes along with the job. You could argue that this is true of any job, but the prostitute must deal with being socially ostracized because she is pursuing an occupation that is morally unacceptable to many in the society. She may easily become the victim of STDs (although it is true that other occupations have health hazards also). She may suffer abuse from a pimp or other employer. And even though prostitution may be legal, the supply of customers often exceeds the supply of prostitutes, which leads to forcible recruiting. So, even in the practice of so called victimless crimes there may be victims.

So, C.I., it would be nice if it were but it is probably not as uncomplicated as holding hands or kissing.

For anyone interested, "The Humanist" magazine on the newsstands now has two articles on prostitution: one for legalization and one against.

It is particularly interesting to read the very different slant on the situation in the Netherlands where prostitution is legal. One article, with a lot of facts and figures, makes the P life there seem to be virtual slavery for the vast majority of workers. The other article sees the atmosphere there as one of openness and freedom for woman. I will have to say that the article presenting the life as one of slavery is the more convincing.

This is not a simple issue.

Sorry, no on line edition. For a brief summary you can go to
www.AmericanHumanist.org

I don't think anybody assumed it was a simple issue. As I said before, many turn to prostitution to buy food and shelter. Many so-called "honorable" jobs are risky to life and limb. As with any job that has exposure to unsafe work conditions, it behooves the employer to ensure the workers safety. That, we know, doesn't always happen. In some work environments, no matter how much they practice safety precautions, accidents still happen. As for the sex trade in Holland, maybe, the only way to find out if they are mistreated or work under unsafe conditions is to ask them directly rather than reading what the pros and cons are from third hand observors. c.i.

Thanks Hazlitt, of course, there is a major legal market in Story County Nevada with lots of data developed over many years.

What you say is very true; but, it is the "oldest profession" as previously pointed out. Regardless of all attempts under every form of government and in every known society it has existed and prospered. It is not always been the lowest occupation, sometimes held in great esteem (though admittedly, seldom). I myself hold a car salesmen in less glamorous a light, truly.

But, isn't there one thing you will agree on Hazlitt, in societies where prostitution is legal, they are less victimized? Thanks for your thoughtful response!

I agree with you C.I.
Unfortunately the white-collar criminals in our society seldom are held to account for what they do and, I would venture to say the majority are not even discovered or charged.

I told a friend recently, that IMO white-collar criminals are 'sophisticated sociopaths'.
By that I mean that they are, like other 'cruder' sociopaths, predatory by nature, lack the ability to truly empathize with others, and have little remorse for their cruelty or exploitation.

However they differ from their less sophisticated brethren in that they are smarter, less impulsive, and are more successful in their manipulation of others.
Also they don't trip themselves up by reckless, blatantly illegal behaviors like rape or armed robbery.

IMO there are many 'sophisticated sociopaths' among the ranks of business leaders and politicians.


For a fuller description of sociopaths go to:
http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/socio.htm



Babs
Nice post. I agree with most of what you say so eloquently. I do think it's OK to be a little humorous however. For example I was going to tell people to be more compassionate towards prostitutes who are, after all, . . .
. . . just trying to make ends meet!

'sophisticated sociopaths' - kinda applies to the Bush administration, also - hmmmmmmmmmmm!

sophisticated?

OK, 'thugish sophisticated sociopaths'

Babs, you raise some excellent points, although I tend to agree with jjorge about having a little humor about these matters, even if it is the black humor of a show like MASH.

My disagreement comes with comparing white collar criminals, especially the Ken Lays of the world, with prostitutes. I may be mistaken, but I don't think protitutes go about their job with the intention of robbing their customers, but to be paid for a service given. Someone like Ken Lay, as described in jjorge's article, is amoral and totally focused on his own advancement without any regard for the destruction of the lives of those he robs. These CEO's are far worse and far more dangerous than any prostitute. IMO, they should be convicted of manslaughter. And yes, whoever said that the current administration, especially the shrub, is sociopathic, described them perfectly. (It was BillW).

Diane, prostitutes are not sociopaths, by and large, either!

dlk, When we look at our homeless children who sell themselves to get money, it's very sad. c.i.

Diane, I was trying to make the same point when I called prostitution a victimless crime.

Hazlitt, that brings to mind when coupled with c.i.'s response the following:

It is a societal crime (in many instances) against the unfortunate. It then causes the psycological injuries that have to be carried ----

dyslexia

My point in coining the term 'sophisticated sociopath' is to distinguish certain amoral people who share many of the character traits of as sociopaths...ie. their self aggrandizing, manipulative nature and lack of empathy for the people they use or exploit.

While some may not be sophisticated in the usual sense of the word, they ARE sophisticated IN THEIR SOCIOPATHY. They don't do the BLATANT things like stealing your wallet at the point of a knife, but they create phony electricity shortages in California and steal billions. They may not
break into your house and steal your VCR but they will assign a 'buy' rating to a stock that they know is a bad risk, costing investors millions, because they are being enriched by the company that they are touting.

In my opinion the usual constellation of behaviors that describe sociopathy is too heavily weighted with descriptions of violent criminal behavior (presumably because these are the sociopaths who most often get caught, they don't have friends in high places, and they can't afford million dollar legal fees!)

Not enough attention is given to the key personality traits that
underlie sociopathic behavior, ie. entitlement, manipulation, inability to empathize (genuinely) with others, and lack of remorse.

PS
I concur with BillW, Diane, and Hazlitt that prostitutes are not usually sociopaths.