3
   

Liberal Columnist asks "Could Bush have been right?"

 
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 02:02 pm
Gunga:

Continuously using Western definitions to help bolster your side of the argument belies your basic understanding of what's taking place in Iraq.

Why do you think we are there?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 02:09 pm
Dookiestix wrote:

Why do you think we are there?


Mainly because of Saddam Hussein poisoning the US senate office building with anthrax, but there are several other reasons, any of which would justify the operation.

There was the little terror university with mockup airliners for terrorists to practice in.

There was the system of paying suicide bombers' families.

There was the three-way deal with Iraq, North Korea and Libya to build nuclear tipped missiles in Libya using uranium and materials from NK, technology and financial resources from Iraq, and hardened sites in Libya.

There was the evidence of Hussein's involvement in 9-11, in the original towers bombing in 93, in Oklahoma city and several other kinds of things, none of which could be proven beyond all doubt but all of which added up to a pattern which could not be ignored.

There was the scamming of oil4food and other violations of the guy's basic deal after 91. In other words, you cannot allow a guy like that with the kinds of motives he had and the proven record of using WMDs against innocent people to handle those kinds of financial resources.

I mean, all of that would do for starters at least.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 02:15 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
Christ, Brandon, not THAT argument again. The only REASON given for invading Iraq was WMD's, or are you conveniently forgetting that one?

http://www.news-leader.com/today/0126-ManyIraqis-288077.html

The "flaw" is that our sole purpose for going into Iraq was because of the WMDs, and it was sold to us on a pack of lies. It wasn't ABOUT Democracy, as Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice and the rest assured us we'd go in and come right back out (remember?)

My memory is going. When did I say we invaded to give them democracy???

We invaded to resolve the WMD issue, but it sure would be nice to be able to replace a brutal dictator with a democratic republic while we're in the neighborhood, something you show remarkably little interest in.

Dookiestix wrote:
Bush failed miserably on the WMD fiasco, and so he relies on his corporate minions to turn this whole thing aroud and make it into a referendum for freedom and Democracy. And you embrace the ruse perfectly.

Not at all. Wrong in every respect. When you are dealing with an issue like Hussein having WMD, you can't take a lot of chances. Millions could die in consequence. It would have been foolish in the extreme not to invade and so leave some chance that we would wake up in a few years to news of WMD being used in the US. Bringing democracy to a hideously oppressed people was not our reason for going in, but it would be a great thing to achieve while we're there.

Dookiestix wrote:
he "imperfections" in the Iraqi elections will NEVER be corrected (IMO), because we can't even deal with our OWN imperfections. At least WE don't vote in an occupied police state, but we're heading in that direction.

Certainly one can't correct all of the imperfections in any election system, but it sure is better to try than not to. You really appear to have no interest whatever in giving these people the right to vote. The behavior of the insurgents, e.g. targeting civilians deliberately and bombing polling places to try to forcibly stop voting should be more than enough proof that they must not be allowed to control Iraq. It is a good thing to protect the people who do want to live in a democracy from them.

Dookiestix wrote:
Invading Iraq was wrong. Bottom line. Saddam was not a threat, and hadn't been since 1991, and the billions spent on this bullshit war could have been used for more immediate concerns (medicare and medical).

There's nothing to celebrate here but a neocon's own stupidity in rejecting hindsight.
Had we not pressured Hussein over and over again for years to shut down his WMD programs and destroy the weapons he already had, had we not promised over and over again to enforce the written terms of his surrender in Gulf War One, he would probably have and be using WMD now or soon, at least as a tool of intimidation. Under the worst circumstances a single WMD could kill a lot more people than have died in this war.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 02:17 pm
You forgot the oil, Gunga.

You Neocons always do.

oil4food doesn't even come close to this:

http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/0131-11.htm

And I'm sure you have the usual neoconservative disinformation sites/links in which to footnote your reasons.

Pattern? America's pattern for acquiring oil by FAR exceeds Saddam's presumed "pattern."

Saddam poisoning the U.S. Senate? Bullshit.

Like Suskind pointed out, you neocon death cultists will create your own bizarre reality to justify your actions.

Really very sad, but mostly just pathetic.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 02:22 pm
gungasnake wrote:
You mean all the holier and wiser than thou demokkkrats who've been squeeling and carrying on and leaving no stone unturned to obstruct this policy have been full of **** all along?

You're kidding me. Come on, say you're kidding me.....


I have never claimed to know much...but I know a little about the KKK. I'm just wondering if this was a typo Gunga...and if not, how the KKK can be infused into democratic ideology.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 03:00 pm
candidone1 wrote:

I have never claimed to know much...but I know a little about the KKK. I'm just wondering if this was a typo Gunga...and if not, how the KKK can be infused into democratic ideology.


You might want to call up Robert Byrd's office and ask somebody.

http://www.nostyleink.com/img/robertbyrdfashion.jpg
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 03:28 pm
Well guess what? We pressured Saddam Hussein, and it turns out that he actually destroyed his weapons somwhere back in 1991.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Opinion/How-we-bought-the-WMD-lie/2005/01/30/1107020254944.html

Oh, the many lies...
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2005 11:08 am
gungasnake wrote:
candidone1 wrote:

I have never claimed to know much...but I know a little about the KKK. I'm just wondering if this was a typo Gunga...and if not, how the KKK can be infused into democratic ideology.


You might want to call up Robert Byrd's office and ask somebody.


I don't need to. Someone already has.

Quote:
Q: What has been your biggest mistake and your biggest success?

A: Well, it's easy to state what has been my biggest mistake. The greatest mistake I ever made was joining the Ku Klux Klan. And I've said that many times. But one cannot erase what he has done. He can only change his ways and his thoughts. That was an albatross around my neck that I will always wear. You will read it in my obituary that I was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.


Source

It makes sense to me that you'd make a blanket generalization about the Dems based on the past actions of one individual, while also ignoring his regrets and apology for such affiliations.
Standard fare from you....
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2005 11:47 am
Dookiestix wrote:
Well guess what? We pressured Saddam Hussein, and it turns out that he actually destroyed his weapons somwhere back in 1991.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Opinion/How-we-bought-the-WMD-lie/2005/01/30/1107020254944.html

Oh, the many lies...

1. How do you know that his weapons were destroyed in 1991 as opposed to the week before the invasion?

2. Give me an example of a lie the Bush administration told about this, and do be sure to show that it wasn't a good faith error.

3. Anyway, even if Hussein's WMD were destroyed in 1991, and the programs dismantled, the invasion was the right thing to do because we had no way of being sure that they had been destroyed. Since Hussein wanted sactions lifted, it's kind of odd that he didn't have real proof, e.g. videotapes, that the WMD he had possessed were destroyed. I guess we should have taken his word for it.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2005 11:58 am
That photo of Byrd is obviously fake. Once again Gungasnake gives the game away. You're an intellectual fraud, dude...
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2005 12:44 pm
yeah totally, the gunga posted a faked image which leads to faked credibility (the way I see it)
0 Replies
 
almach1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2005 01:41 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
Christ, Brandon, not THAT argument again. The only REASON given for invading Iraq was WMD's, or are you conveniently forgetting that one?

http://www.news-leader.com/today/0126-ManyIraqis-288077.html

The "flaw" is that our sole purpose for going into Iraq was because of the WMDs, and it was sold to us on a pack of lies. It wasn't ABOUT Democracy, as Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice and the rest assured us we'd go in and come right back out (remember?)

Bush failed miserably on the WMD fiasco, and so he relies on his corporate minions to turn this whole thing aroud and make it into a referendum for freedom and Democracy. And you embrace the ruse perfectly.

The "imperfections" in the Iraqi elections will NEVER be corrected (IMO), because we can't even deal with our OWN imperfections. At least WE don't vote in an occupied police state, but we're heading in that direction.

Invading Iraq was wrong. Bottom line. Saddam was not a threat, and hadn't been since 1991, and the billions spent on this bullshit war could have been used for more immediate concerns (medicare and medical).

There's nothing to celebrate here but a neocon's own stupidity in rejecting hindsight.


Dookie, i couln't have said it better myself. If it's our job to bring democracy to the world then we have about 100 countires to invade next. AT over 1000 troops dead per each. Heck, many of countries in Africa have had democratic elections in the past and they are still void of any progress. i got a feeling we are going to be in Iraq for quite a while(and rightfully so, for basically destroying their infastructure).
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2005 02:01 pm
Quote:
1. How do you know that his weapons were destroyed in 1991 as opposed to the week before the invasion?


http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-CIA-Iraq-Weapons.html?oref=login

Quote:
2. Give me an example of a lie the Bush administration told about this, and do be sure to show that it wasn't a good faith error.


So, I guess YOU'RE willing to show that every egregious act committed by the current idiot in the White House was ALL just good faith errors? Laughing

Bush lies:

http://www.bushlies.net/pages/1/

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/07/22_lies.html

http://www.bushwatch.com/iraqevidence.htm

I guess that even though Bush is a lying sack of ****, it's really just all done in "good faith."

Quote:
Since Hussein wanted sactions lifted, it's kind of odd that he didn't have real proof, e.g. videotapes, that the WMD he had possessed were destroyed. I guess we should have taken his word for it.


The only "odd" thing here is your unbelievable penchant to blindly assume the ridiculous.

How do YOU know Saddam even wanted the sanctions lifted? He was a bastard and a tyrant, and he obviously profitted nicely from the sanctions and the oil4food fiasco.

Sadly, I don't think there's any hope for you, Brandon. Bush's alternate reality has effectively sucked you in for the long, hard sludge.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 09:29 am
Quote:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The CIA is preparing retrospective reports to officially revise what proved to be faulty intelligence on Iraq's weapons capabilities before the 2003 invasion.

Among them is a document no more than a dozen pages entitled ``Iraq: No Large-Scale Chemical Warfare Efforts Since Early 1990s,'' said an intelligence official familiar with the process, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

The report concludes that former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein gave up his chemical weapons program after the 1991 Gulf War.

The Bush administration used the existence of weapons of mass destruction -- chemical, biological and nuclear weapons -- as a leading justification to overthrow the Iraqi government.

In a lengthy and now controversial prewar analysis, the intelligence community said that Saddam had probably stockpiled at least 100 metric tons, and potentially as much as 500 metric tons, of chemical weapons. ``Much of it added in the last year,'' the document said.


...from the NYT link provided above.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 09:40 am
http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php

http://www.2la.org/syria/wmd/al-safir-base-map_s.jpg

Quote:

A senior Syrian journalist reports Iraq WMD located in three Syrian sites

06 January, 2004

AFP

Nizar Nayuf (Nayyouf-Nayyuf), a Syrian journalist who recently defected from Syria to Western Europe and is known for bravely challenging the Syrian regime, said in a letter Monday, January 5, to Dutch newspaper "De Telegraaf," that he knows the three sites where Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) are kept. The storage places are:

-1- Tunnels dug under the town of al-Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria. These tunnels are an integral part of an underground factory, built by the North Koreans, for producing Syrian Scud missiles. Iraqi chemical weapons and long-range missiles are stored in these tunnels.

-2- The village of Tal Snan, north of the town of Salamija, where there is a big Syrian air force camp. Vital parts of Iraq's WMD are stored there.

-3-. The city of Sjinsjar on the Syrian border with the Lebanon, south of Homs city.

Nayouf writes that the transfer of Iraqi WMD to Syria was organized by the commanders of Saddam Hussein's Special Republican Guard, including General Shalish, with the help of Assif Shoakat , Bashar Assad's cousin. Shoakat is the CEO of Bhaha, an import/export company owned by the Assad family.

In February 2003, a month before America's invasion in Iraq, very few are aware about the efforts to bring the Weapons of Mass Destruction from Iraq to Syria, and the personal involvement of Bashar Assad and his family in the operation.
Nayouf, who has won prizes for journalistic integrity, says he wrote his letter because he has terminal cancer.

Click here for Satellite Images of the Syrian-Iraq's WMD Locations

http://www.2la.org/syria/wmd.html

0 Replies
 
 

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