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Liberal Columnist asks "Could Bush have been right?"

 
 
cjhsa
 
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 10:34 am
What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?

February 1, 2005

BY MARK BROWN CHICAGO SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST


Maybe you're like me and have opposed the Iraq war since before the shooting started -- not to the point of joining any peace protests, but at least letting people know where you stood.



You didn't change your mind when our troops swept quickly into Baghdad or when you saw the rabble that celebrated the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue, figuring that little had been accomplished and that the tough job still lay ahead.

Despite your misgivings, you didn't demand the troops be brought home immediately afterward, believing the United States must at least try to finish what it started to avoid even greater bloodshed. And while you cheered Saddam's capture, you couldn't help but thinking I-told-you-so in the months that followed as the violence continued to spread and the death toll mounted.

By now, you might have even voted against George Bush -- a second time -- to register your disapproval.

But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself: What if it turns out Bush was right, and we were wrong?

It's hard to swallow, isn't it?

Americans cross own barrier



If you fit the previously stated profile, I know you're fighting the idea, because I am, too. And if you were with the president from the start, I've already got your blood boiling.

For those who've been in the same boat with me, we don't need to concede the point just yet. There's a long way to go. But I think we have to face the possibility.

I won't say that it had never occurred to me previously, but it's never gone through my mind as strongly as when I watched the television coverage from Iraq that showed long lines of people risking their lives by turning out to vote, honest looks of joy on so many of their faces.

Some CNN guest expert was opining Monday that the Iraqi people crossed a psychological barrier by voting and getting a taste of free choice (setting aside the argument that they only did so under orders from their religious leaders).

I think it's possible that some of the American people will have crossed a psychological barrier as well.

Deciding democracy's worth



On the other side of that barrier is a concept some of us have had a hard time swallowing:

Maybe the United States really can establish a peaceable democratic government in Iraq, and if so, that would be worth something.

Would it be worth all the money we've spent? Certainly.

Would it be worth all the lives that have been lost? That's the more difficult question, and while I reserve judgment on that score until such a day arrives, it seems probable that history would answer yes to that as well.

I don't want to get carried away in the moment.

Going to war still sent so many terrible messages to the world.

Most of the obstacles to success in Iraq are all still there, the ones that have always led me to believe that we would eventually be forced to leave the country with our tail tucked between our legs. (I've maintained from the start that if you were impressed by the demonstrations in the streets of Baghdad when we arrived, wait until you see how they celebrate our departure, no matter the circumstances.)

In and of itself, the voting did nothing to end the violence. The forces trying to regain the power they have lost -- and the outside elements supporting them -- will be no less determined to disrupt our efforts and to drive us out.

Somebody still has to find a way to bring the Sunnis into the political process before the next round of elections at year's end. The Iraqi government still must develop the capacity to protect its people.

And there seems every possibility that this could yet end in civil war the day we leave or with Iraq becoming an Islamic state every bit as hostile to our national interests as was Saddam.

Penance could be required



But on Sunday, we caught a glimpse of the flip side. We could finally see signs that a majority of the Iraqi people perceive something to be gained from this brave new world we are forcing on them.

Instead of making the elections a further expression of "Yankee Go Home," their participation gave us hope that all those soldiers haven't died in vain.

Obviously, I'm still curious to see if Bush is willing to allow the Iraqis to install a government that is free to kick us out or to oppose our other foreign policy efforts in the region.

So is the rest of the world.

For now, though, I think we have to cut the president some slack about a timetable for his exit strategy.

If it turns out Bush was right all along, this is going to require some serious penance.

Maybe I'd have to vote Republican in 2008.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown01.html
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Type: Discussion • Score: 3 • Views: 2,120 • Replies: 34
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 12:14 pm
Was it worth over 1,400 U.S. soldier's lives, 10's of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives?

There will be no such thing as an exit strategy, as we're building permanent military bases over there already to secure the oil. That's why Democrats are now pushing Bush for an exit strategy.

cjhsa, do you honestly believe that if the Iraqis asked us to leave, that we would?
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 12:16 pm
And cjhsa, who's fault would it ultimately be if Iraq were to break into massive civil war, if and when we were to leave?
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 12:19 pm
You are so afraid of Bush's success, aren't you?
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 12:21 pm
What success? He's a dismal failure. Iraq remains a police state while citizens vote. Boy, what's wrong with THAT picture?

"Obviously, I'm still curious to see if Bush is willing to allow the Iraqis to install a government that is free to kick us out or to oppose our other foreign policy efforts in the region."

No way in hell.

It's one puppet government creating another one in the Middle East.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 12:23 pm
Wow, you really are a lost cause. Enjoy your friends in San Francisco, as your power wanes across the country and in D.C.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 12:25 pm
Dookie, you need to redefine your understanding of what permanent means.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 12:25 pm
Thought provoking article....and I'm very much like Mark Brown on this...now if we could just get the conservatives to stop this childish "Nyah Nyah...we told you so...
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:21 pm
I think pretty soon the arguments might go in the opposite directions for both sides when the newly elected folks get in there and decide how they want to run things that goes counter to how it was envisioned.

I was just reading an interesting article on the other iraqi board that said that at first the Bush administration didn't really want to hold elections as such but the Shiite guy (I have forgotten his name) who pretty well runs how everyone thinks there insisted so the Bush administration went along with it. It makes me wonder what else they will have to go along with that does not exactly fit into their plans and how they will manage to spin that into something that they wanted all along.

As for the good turnout; I am glad about it and it don't even hurt to say it.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:35 pm
I'm with panzade, and Mark Brown. And I think that you might hear quite a few others saying the same thing if, like p said, we could just muzzle the neener neeners.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:36 pm
And wow, you really are full of ****, cjhsa. Amazing that we had to invade a sovereign country in order to make sure that every Iraqi vote counts, especially when they're bribed with food:

http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/hard_news/archives/hard_news/000192.php

Whereas in the U.S. it's all about intimidation of already registered Democratic voters.

Most Iraqis don't even know what the hell they're voting for:

http://www.news-leader.com/today/0126-ManyIraqis-288077.html

And you, Bush, and the rest of the neocons are calling this Democracy?

Boy, talk about a lost cause...
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:42 pm
If you mean Sistani, yes he is THE powerbroker in Iraq. And I think there was an understanding that the troops wouldn't leave immediately after the election. I believe this was a concession by the Iraquis. The spin on the troops staying started today with Alawi who said that perhaps a year would be needed to train Iraq's forces to secure the country.
In any case I doubt anyone is glum that the Iraqui's are thrilled with their ability to vote.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:45 pm
Quote:

"But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself:

What if it turns out Bush was right, and we were wrong? "


You mean, what if being angry and having a case aren't the same thing? You mean, what if all the hysterical voices were just being hysterical?

You mean, every time I ever turned on a TV set or picked up a magazine in a dentists office for the year and a half before the election and all I ever saw or heard was

Quote:

"OH MY GOD, that George W. Bush is a STUPID FOOL, and we're all gonna die on accounta what a stupid fool that George W. Bush is.....


you mean all the mainstream media peple saying that stuff were full of ****??

You mean all the holier and wiser than thou demokkkrats who've been squeeling and carrying on and leaving no stone unturned to obstruct this policy have been full of **** all along?

You're kidding me. Come on, say you're kidding me.....
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:46 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
And wow, you really are full of ****, cjhsa. Amazing that we had to invade a sovereign country...

You use the term "invade a sovereign country" as though you thought that was automatically wrong. Why would you consider it wrong to invade a sovereign country the government of which was just a bunch of thugs who brutally supressed, and maybe even killed, any citizen who tried to dissent?


Dookiestix wrote:
...in order to make sure that every Iraqi vote counts, especially when they're bribed with food:

http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/hard_news/archives/hard_news/000192.php

Whereas in the U.S. it's all about intimidation of already registered Democratic voters.

Most Iraqis don't even know what the hell they're voting for:

http://www.news-leader.com/today/0126-ManyIraqis-288077.html

And you, Bush, and the rest of the neocons are calling this Democracy?

Boy, talk about a lost cause...

Personally, I don't think that TRYING to give democracy to a people who have never known it should ever be described as a lost cause. Tell me, would you rather see imperfections in their election corrected or simply see them returned to what they had before, because I sure don't hear you expressing much interest in fixing the flaws you are purporting?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:46 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:

"But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself:

What if it turns out Bush was right, and we were wrong? "


You mean, what if being angry and having a case aren't the same thing? You mean, what if all the hysterical voices were just being hysterical?

You mean, every time I ever turned on a TV set or picked up a magazine in a dentists office for the year and a half before the election and all I ever saw or heard was

Quote:

"OH MY GOD, that George W. Bush is a STUPID FOOL, and we're all gonna die on accounta what a stupid fool that George W. Bush is.....


you mean all the mainstream media peple saying that stuff were full of ****??

You mean all the holier and wiser than thou demokkkrats who've been squeeling and carrying on and leaving no stone unturned to obstruct this policy have been full of **** all along?

You're kidding me. Come on, say you're kidding me.....

Exhibit A.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:48 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
And wow, you really are full of ****, cjhsa. Amazing that we had to invade a sovereign country in order to make sure that every Iraqi vote counts, especially when they're bribed with food:


A bribe by definition can only go to an individual or a small number of people since the basic notion of a bribe involves leverage. "Bribing" the entire population of a country isn't "bribary"; it's "sharing the wealth".
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:50 pm
gunga I think that's exactly the same defense Spiro Agnew used "sharing the wealth"
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:51 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
Was it worth over 1,400 U.S. soldier's lives, 10's of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives?

Well, let's see. The invasion was part of a worldwide, ongoing effort to deny WMD to people like Hussein. Even if it later turned out that he no longer had by the time of the invasion, that was the goal. Should someone like Hussein be allowed to build up a stockpile of WMD, there is a real possibility of facing hundreds of thousands or millions of deaths.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:55 pm
Christ, Brandon, not THAT argument again. The only REASON given for invading Iraq was WMD's, or are you conveniently forgetting that one?

http://www.news-leader.com/today/0126-ManyIraqis-288077.html

The "flaw" is that our sole purpose for going into Iraq was because of the WMDs, and it was sold to us on a pack of lies. It wasn't ABOUT Democracy, as Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice and the rest assured us we'd go in and come right back out (remember?)

Bush failed miserably on the WMD fiasco, and so he relies on his corporate minions to turn this whole thing aroud and make it into a referendum for freedom and Democracy. And you embrace the ruse perfectly.

The "imperfections" in the Iraqi elections will NEVER be corrected (IMO), because we can't even deal with our OWN imperfections. At least WE don't vote in an occupied police state, but we're heading in that direction.

Invading Iraq was wrong. Bottom line. Saddam was not a threat, and hadn't been since 1991, and the billions spent on this bullshit war could have been used for more immediate concerns (medicare and medical).

There's nothing to celebrate here but a neocon's own stupidity in rejecting hindsight.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2005 01:56 pm
dyslexia wrote:
gunga I think that's exactly the same defense Spiro Agnew used "sharing the wealth"


Not really. In the early seventies, the governor of Md. earned a salry in the neighborhood of about $25K/yr which was less than a GS 9 or 11 govt. worker made. The governor was SUPPOSED to make his on the side; that's the way the system in Md had worked since Adam and Eve.

The powers that be used that history to force Agnew out of office when they saw Nixon about to get heaved, and then they actually prosecuted Marvin Mandel, a democrat, for the same thing and put him in jail for it which was absolutely heinous. Mandel was one of the better governors that poor state has ever had.

If you really had to pick one Md. governor to throw the book at, it's got to be Paris Glendenning, who's basically a criminal in the same sort of league as Al Capone.
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