What can we do to help improve science education in the US?

plainoldme wrote:

Obfuscate! Obfuscate! Obfuscate!

Listen, little boy, when you chose to insult, its fine, but why would I bother to check your profile? I already know all that I need to know about you.

Try debating with facts and examples from the real world as I do not with obfuscation.

1. If you suggest that I am a 17 year old high school student cutting class, it is hardly obfuscation to state my actual age and educational level.
2. When I point out that I respond to your specific statements, but that you ignore mine, that is not obfuscation either.

Please give one example of a response of mine that you consider to have been obfuscation rather than debate.

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You said:

plainoldme wrote:

Brandon -- there hasn't been a fact in any of your airings: just the right wing propaganda you swallowed and regurgitated because it is easier than looking at the real world.

If you make a statement, and I respond specifically with a counter-argument, calling my statement "right wing propaganda" does not free you from the necessity of showing that my statement is not correct. Whether any particular thing that I say is or is not right-wing propaganda, it can still be either correct or incorrect. Debaters who refuse to deal with their opponents' logic, but instead simply malign its origins, have something to hide.

The following is a recent exchange of ours:

plainoldme wrote:

...What, Brandon, about for profit companies whose employees are untrained and barely educated?

Brandon9000 wrote:

If you are referring to having companies implement the testing, then, of course, it would certainly be possible to have a substandard or incompetent implementation, but that does not imply that the goal itself is wrong. Anything can have a good or poor implementation.

You asked a question, and I answered it, disputing your logic. A fair debater would have responded to my counter-argument. Instead, you ignore my disproofs of your statements and simply make more statements, or else call me names.

Since you refuse to pursue any single thread of argument, or answer any of the questions put to you, this is not a debate. I am debating, you are simply making a series of statements and engaging in childish name calling.

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Brandon -- Saying it is possible to have an incompetent implimentation is NOT ANSWERING the question.

Look, people criticize teachers because they think teachers took/take easy courses in college. I pointed out that people of my generation -- slightly older than your alleged age -- who were left of center strove to improve education by majoring in the subject(s) they wished to teach, not in education. That was a reform that has slowly been adopted throughout the nation. You and fishin' and timberlandko with his plaid shirts decried that. Get real. Real reform most often begins at the grass root level and this reform began with friends of mine in Michigan who wanted to improve education.

Continuing with the same topic, when I offered that the man who teaches the highest level science courses here at AHS is an MIT grad and that there is an MIT grad student teaching in the math dept, Brandon created the impression that hiring MIT grads won't improve education.

Timberlandko (who I just realized probably never finished a degree . . . another obfuscator) thinks if schools were to be run as for profit businesses, they would fail. Oh! So AHS fails because in less than 20 years it increased the number of students going on to four year colleges . . . it fails because not all of its 1200 students can pass the MCAS, despite the fact that a tiny %age failed and those kids have other issues (the scars from major brain surgery are evident on one of the girls).

One of the biggest problems this country faces today is capitalism run amok. We have ruined the country with our urge for profit.

Timberlandko also said there are no changes and no improvements made in education. Well, there have been many. The trouble is the Big T is too busy laundering his plaid shirts to see reality. Life has gone on since the days when the jebbies were administering corporal punishment to you.

BTW, T, three members of my freshman class at Marygrove were admitted at age 16. They had terrible problems with maturity as did a couple of friends I met later in life: one who started CalTech at 14 and the other who began Wayne State at 16. Your writing, as well as Brandon's, give to my admittedly untrained eye, evidence of emotional immaturity to today. Fishin' evidences a hair trigger temper and a rather constant state of anger. You three have some personal housecleaning to do.

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Okay, back to the topic at hand!

How to improve science instruction in the US? Make teaching a viable career for graduates of MIT, CalTech, Illinois Institute of Technology, etc.

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plainoldme wrote:

Okay, back to the topic at hand!

How to improve science instruction in the US? Make teaching a viable career for graduates of MIT, CalTech, Illinois Institute of Technology, etc.

You can lead a human to knowledge, but you can't make it think.

Are you sure that the root of the problem lies in having better teachers, or does it lie in having kids who want to learn? Obviously, both would help, but would one help way more than the other?

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plainoldme wrote:

Your writing, as well as Brandon's, give to my admittedly untrained eye, evidence of emotional immaturity....

Interesting, since you're the one whose arguments turn quickly into personal insults.

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Continuing where I was interrupted this morning . . .

as I said, despite the fact that you here have criticisms of teacher training, and you think standardized testing is the answer, YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE ABUSE OF HAVING TOTALLY UNTRAINED PEOPLE COMPOSE TESTS BY SIMPLY LOOKING LEAFING THROUGH TEXT BOOKS.

Brandon -- Young man, you insulted me first. If telling you that your writing reflects emotional immaturity is an insult, you have a pretty thin skin.

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rosbourne -- If a child is raised in a house where his father thinks he is always right because he wears plaid shirts, do you think the kid would be capable of accepting correction?

On the late, not really lamented abuzz, a contributor was surprised to learn that using scissors has educational value.

These people who stress profit and accountability are cutting things like art and music. The bottom liners fail to realize that there are multiple learning styles; that a day spent listening to a teacher lecture may not work for each member of the class. Even when a person is definitely a "hands on" learner or a lecturer listening learner, they still can and do learn through other sorts of experiences. ONE OF THE INNOVATIONS IN TEACHING TODAY IS THE RECOGNITION GIVEN TO THE VARIETY OF LEARNING STYLES WITHIN A CLASSROOM. When you go to an elementary school, you might find that math is taught two or three times during the day, with each lesson designed to fit a particular learning style.

As to the matter of better teachers, well, how many times have you heard people suggest that the only people who become teachers are people who can barely gain admission to college. The strange thing is that there are a lot of people who are teachers who were in National Honor Society, who attended 'competive' colleges like those in the Ivy League or the Big Ten or the Pac 8, whose educations were financed by scholarships. And, the truth of the matter is that some of these people are excellent teachers and some may be too intelligent to teach as they have little understanding of the learning process. But, I'll take my chances with my children and grandchildren with a teacher who went to Duke or Michigan or Princeton over a teacher who graduated from Central Michigan or Salem State.

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plainoldme wrote:

rosbourne -- If a child is raised in a house where his father thinks he is always right because he wears plaid shirts, do you think the kid would be capable of accepting correction?

No. So I take your point to be that it doesn't matter how good the teacher is, the kid isn't going to listen... which was exactly the point I was making.

When I started this thread, I was really hoping for some fairly large scale creative suggestions on how to improve science education.

I remember in the early 60's that there was a general respect for "smart" kids who knew science. But as time went on, and I went through high school, there developed a general cynicism of "smart" kids which actually led to some of us "hiding" our skills and getting moderate grades (to better fit into the social fabric of teen culture).

I would like to find a way to re-infuse the vision of youth with a respect for knowledge. Somehow that has been degraded in our culture, and I'm not sure of the root cause, but I think it would benefit us all if it could be changed.

We may all disagree on which problem is most sever in our system, and some may even say that the system is fine, but when I see Jay Leno and Dave Letterman stopping people on the street and asking them things which 10 year olds should know about the world around us, and seeing them laugh about their own ignorance, I know there's a problem somewhere.

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plainoldme wrote:

Brandon -- Young man, you insulted me first.

Untrue. It started here:

plainoldme wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
If you are saying that it is not possible to formulate a test which measures decently whether students are being educated, I would have to call that just on the face of it false.

You obviously never read on grade level. I wrote nothing of the kind. Try to figure out what I read and report back to me. This is a test and not one composed by a business student.

Have to sign off for the time being. Do try to do as well as these kids here.

Find the previous post of mine in which I "started it." I may insult a poster's argument or debating technique, but I do not often insult the poster as you do.

plainoldme wrote:

If telling you that your writing reflects emotional immaturity is an insult, you have a pretty thin skin.

No, it isn't. I was referring to all of the previous ones.

If you are concerned about having a company with untrained employees administer the testing scheme, then I agree completely. We should find someone trained and competent to do it, but the idea of evaluating the effectiveness of schools is fundamentally a good one.

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This was posted a couple of weeks back:

I would like for the public education system to provide sufficient education for a High School Graduate to be employable at a level which is productive to the corporate society and rewarding to the individual.

Refraining from correcting the syntax, I would like to remind the writer that at one time, it was possible for a high school graduate to be gainfully employed -- by which I mean able to support a family. You really don't mention gainful employment unless that is what you mean by "rewarding to the individual," which I take to mean emotionally and intellectually satisfying.

Once upon a time, people went to college to avoid the sort of jobs which allowed "gainful employment" that was neither intellectually or emotionally satisfying. Examples of these sorts of jobs include factory work and managing retail stores. Factory work has largely disappeared, sent abroad to countries where the standard of living is lower and laborers need small pay checks. Jobs that were traditionally held by high school grads, like store management, now go to college grads. Depending upon the store and the area, they may pay enough to support a family but they are just as boring as ever and demand longer hours than equivalent posts did in the 60s and 70s because retail stores are now open for extended hours.

Why do you think college educated people are taking jobs generally held by high school graduates?

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rosbourne -- If a child is raised in a house where his father thinks he is always right because he wears plaid shirts, do you think the kid would be capable of accepting correction?

No. So I take your point to be that it doesn't matter how good the teacher is, the kid isn't going to listen... which was exactly the point I was making.

-----------------

Sorry, there is much more to my point than that. As a permanent sub in a high school, I see a range of behaviors and some of the kids who just can not do the work are diligent and quiet and respectful of their teachers and peers.

I include the kids with mental and emotional problems; the kids who simply have low IQs; the kids who can not speak English (how many contributors to this thread are fluent in more than one language?).

As for the above quote, I was suggesting that if a parent does not show respect for his child's teacher(s), the child will not respect them.

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Brandon -- You may not have be old enough but do you remember a cartoon that was frequently shown on tv during the early 1950s which featured a parrot who read Mein Kampf and used what he learned to turn the household upside down and to turn the animals against each other?

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plainoldme wrote:

As for the above quote, I was suggesting that if a parent does not show respect for his child's teacher(s), the child will not respect them.

Ok. Are you suggesting then that the way to improve education is to improve the attitude of the parents?

Maybe I'm trying to oversimplify your answers here, but I'm trying to understand what the summary of your suggestion would be for improving science education in the US.

You've made a lot of comments, but so far, I'm not able to pick out the few key ideas you have for making improvements. Can you boil it down for us. Thx.

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plainoldme wrote:

Brandon -- You may not have be old enough but do you remember a cartoon that was frequently shown on tv during the early 1950s which featured a parrot who read Mein Kampf and used what he learned to turn the household upside down and to turn the animals against each other?

No, I was born in 1953. As usual, your method of debate involves utterly ignoring every question put to you, and every response to your own statements. This is not a typical quality of people who are right, and no degree of facility with insults compensates for a logical defense.

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> What can we do to help improve science education in the US?

I'd start by getting rid of the public schools. The benefits of that would outweigh the combined benefits of whatever are in second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth..... places.

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gungasnake wrote:

> What can we do to help improve science education in the US?

I'd start by getting rid of the public schools. The benefits of that would outweigh the combined benefits of whatever are in second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth..... places.

Do you want to replace the public schools with anything, or just get rid of them and let people figure out what to do for themselves? ... kinda like survival of the fittest, except it would be education of the most determined.

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rosborne979 wrote:

gungasnake wrote:
> What can we do to help improve science education in the US?

I'd start by getting rid of the public schools. The benefits of that would outweigh the combined benefits of whatever are in second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth..... places.

Do you want to replace the public schools with anything, or just get rid of them and let people figure out what to do for themselves? ... kinda like survival of the fittest, except it would be education of the most determined.

I think he may have been suggesting that public schools would increase to fill the void.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
> What can we do to help improve science education in the US?

I'd start by getting rid of the public schools. The benefits of that would outweigh the combined benefits of whatever are in second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth..... places.

Do you want to replace the public schools with anything, or just get rid of them and let people figure out what to do for themselves? ... kinda like survival of the fittest, except it would be education of the most determined.

I think he may have been suggesting that public schools would increase to fill the void.

I don't get it.

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Brandon: This is not a typical quality of people who are right, and no degree of facility with insults compensates for a logical defense.

Whatever, I was trying to obtain a basic level of information from you. I accept that you must have majored in science: you certainly can not write.

BTW, a master's degree in any science is considered a consolation prize and most people do not mention it.

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What can we do to help improve science education in the US?

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