What can we do to help improve science education in the US?

plainoldme wrote:

Brandon: This is not a typical quality of people who are right, and no degree of facility with insults compensates for a logical defense.

Whatever, I was trying to obtain a basic level of information from you. I accept that you must have majored in science: you certainly can not write.

BTW, a master's degree in any science is considered a consolation prize and most people do not mention it.

I got a BS and MS in physics so that I could work in industry, as I have. It would be more honorable to deal with the merits or demerits of the things I say, rather than their origins. The fact is that never answering on-topic questions or statements made to you in a debate, and inserting personal insults into everything, actually is not a typical characteristic of people who are right.

It is just this simple. Either the schools should have their performance measured in a way they cannot cheat on, or they should be exempt from such evaluation. I believe that any group of workers who are never subject to consequences for bad work, will almost inevitably do bad work. The teachers are subject to evaluation by their supervisors, but the schools as a whole need to be accountable too. Anecdotes about individual good teachers are irrelevant to whether schools should be evaluated.

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Remeber, you lobbed the first salvo. I told you where it is. Find it yourself.

I do answer: you think it is too much to understand. As parados would advise, turn up the hearing aid!

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plainoldme wrote:

...I do answer: you think it is too much to understand. As parados would advise, turn up the hearing aid!

Oh, and here I thought you were refusing to answer any statement made to you. Well, then, answer this one you somehow forgot:

Brandon9000 wrote:

It is just this simple. Either the schools should have their performance measured in a way they cannot cheat on, or they should be exempt from such evaluation. I believe that any group of workers who are never subject to consequences for bad work, will almost inevitably do bad work. The teachers are subject to evaluation by their supervisors, but the schools as a whole need to be accountable too. Anecdotes about individual good teachers are irrelevant to whether schools should be evaluated.

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Ah, yes, you took my tale to be an anecdote about a single good teacher instead of a symbol for all the good teachers.

AND YOU TOTALLY MISS THAT AN INFERIOR TEST APPLIED TO A SUPERIOR SITUATION IS MEANINGLESS. These tests are terrible.

Besides, I've worked at enough jobs to know that politics has more to do with evaluations than the real contribution made by employees. I maintain a part-time job in retail at Williams-Sonoma for several reasons that do not include financial reward. Retail managers come and go at a rate higher than that at which most people change their socks. If a manager likes you, they rate you at 3.5 on a one to five scale (because they can not give you the raise a 5 rating would demand); if they dislike you, they rate you at 3 on all but one point, for which you earn a 2. Silly stuff, ratings.

BTW, on another forum, under my nom d'email there, I suggested that perhaps the bush administration can name Terri Schiavo Secretary of Education: that would make things just about right for bushie.

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plainoldme wrote:

Ah, yes, you took my tale to be an anecdote about a single good teacher instead of a symbol for all the good teachers.

AND YOU TOTALLY MISS THAT AN INFERIOR TEST APPLIED TO A SUPERIOR SITUATION IS MEANINGLESS. These tests are terrible.

Besides, I've worked at enough jobs to know that politics has more to do with evaluations than the real contribution made by employees. I maintain a part-time job in retail at Williams-Sonoma for several reasons that do not include financial reward. Retail managers come and go at a rate higher than that at which most people change their socks. If a manager likes you, they rate you at 3.5 on a one to five scale (because they can not give you the raise a 5 rating would demand); if they dislike you, they rate you at 3 on all but one point, for which you earn a 2. Silly stuff, ratings.

BTW, on another forum, under my nom d'email there, I suggested that perhaps the bush administration can name Terri Schiavo Secretary of Education: that would make things just about right for bushie.

You seem to be advancing the idea that nothing should ever be checked to see if it is working, because all such checks are flawed beyond repair. If you are, I disagree. If you are not, then there should be evaluation of the schools, and I advocate a check done by an external, impartial body, rather than having the school or shool district rate itself.

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First of all, you fail to address the inferiority of the for profit testing agency. They're as bad as those SAT prep companies. Hawg wash!

Second, since when do school districts test or rate themselves? Do you know how a school district is rated? Get the Sunday paper. Open it to the real estate section. Keep three housing styles in mind: the 8-room Colonial; the seven room split; the six room ranch (you can also use the six room cape if it is more prevalent in your area). Observe the differences in prices for these three styles. Make a list of the communities according to the cost of these homes.

Now, look at the statistics for college admissions from the three priciest communities and three least expensive communities. Look, too, at the schools to which the kids are accepted. Then look at their SAT scores.
There you have it: the quality of the school district prices the houses.

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plainoldme wrote:

First of all, you fail to address the inferiority of the for profit testing agency. They're as bad as those SAT prep companies. Hawg wash!

I have addressed it repeatedly by saying that if some particular class of tester, e.g. for profit testing companies, is inadequate, find one or create one that is adequate.

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Brandon -- So, it doesn't matter who or what is testing, as long as testing is done? For some claiming a science background, that is quite a statement!

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plainoldme wrote:

Brandon -- So, it doesn't matter who or what is testing, as long as testing is done? For some claiming a science background, that is quite a statement!

That's not what he's saying.

He's just saying that it's possible to do good testing (at least in theory). And if we don't like the current tests, we simply find (or make) a test which we *do* agree with.

I think Brandon's general point is that one way to improve education is to do valid assessment testing of schools in some type of consistent meaningful manner. I'm not sure exactly how this this would be done yet, but it must be possible (at least in theory). In real life however, politics and finances might make such testing almost impossible to achieve.

Brandon's suggestion is very much inline with the scientific approach to problem solving. But I tend to think in broader terms when I try to solve the education problem. To me, there is more to education than the mechanics of the process. I continue to believe that people who want to learn will find ways to learn no matter what, and that people who don't want to learn will find ways to avoid learning no matter what.

I think that valid testing is a good way to measure and adjust the efficiency of a process, but not necessarily to infuse the process with the life it needs to grow again.

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plainoldme wrote:

Brandon -- So, it doesn't matter who or what is testing, as long as testing is done? For some claiming a science background, that is quite a statement!

1. I never said anything remotely of the kind. For someone claiming competency in English, this is rather peculiar. I said that a testing agency that is competent should be selected, and that is all I said. Your objection to the concept of testing and accountability based on the fact that there are incompetent and apathetic testing companies is merely obtuse. If there are inadequate testers, then the government ought to use adequate ones instead. There are incompetent and apathetic doctors and associations of doctors too, but that is hardly a reason why medicine ought not to be practiced.
2. Since, in fact, I do have a science background, your repeated digs about my "claims" to a science background are a silly distraction with no relevance.

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Sorry to take so long to reply: was without a computer for three days and then, when I had a computer, it accessed the internet via Netscape, which would not allow me to post.

rosbourne -- Look carefully at what brandon says: he does not want teachers composing the tests. he fails to realize that if the tests are printed by a single agency and disseminated across a state, then there is no way that Ms. Smith at Taylor Junior High is in charge of the test given to her students. But, enough of that.

My disagreement with the current vogue for testing is on many levels, the prime being that people who barely finished college are hired by for-profit companies -- which pursuaded states to administer these tests in the first place in order to sell their products -- to compose tests that rove little to nothing.

The second being that the backers of these tests can not pass them.

The third is that they are largely redundant. There are already many tests in place that duplicate their efforts. Besides, most teachers understand the level at which their students work.

The fourth is that they are expensive, both in terms of administering the tests, and in terms of taking away from class time.

The fifth is that the no child left behind crowd has nothing behind these tests. The NCLB folks just want failing schools closed. There is no plan for making schools better. There is nothing in the way of enhanced teacher education or improved text books.

The tests I took when I was a young sprout were superior in to the MCAS in several ways. The first was they were given twice a year and measured the grade level at which the individual test taker functioned. The MCAS is given in 4th, 7th and 10th grade. The MCAS does not say where the individual is but attempts to use the parts (the students) to rate the whole (the school). How silly.

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Brandon -- First of all, I know what your strategy is: it is to try to make me lose my temper. Sorry! You're too transparent. I don't fall for your gambit.

Second, I object to money grubbers without a clue as to what is going on in schools trying to profit from their own ignorance and aggression.
You wrote:Your objection to the concept of testing and accountability based on the fact that there are incompetent and apathetic testing companies is merely obtuse. Well, your use of the word obtuse here is incorrect, but, we'll let that go.

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plainoldme wrote:

Brandon -- First of all, I know what your strategy is: it is to try to make me lose my temper. Sorry! You're too transparent. I don't fall for your gambit.

Second, I object to money grubbers without a clue as to what is going on in schools trying to profit from their own ignorance and aggression.
You wrote:Your objection to the concept of testing and accountability based on the fact that there are incompetent and apathetic testing companies is merely obtuse. Well, your use of the word obtuse here is incorrect, but, we'll let that go.

How incorrect?

Obtuse
ADJECTIVE: Inflected forms: ob·tus·er, ob·tus·est
1a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect. b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark.....

Source

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A report on what one district is doing to improve the teaching of science.

The Boston Public Schools have adopted the newer order of teaching high school science, with physics offered to ninth graders, followed by chemistry and with biology taught last.

The traditional order originated in 1897 with a study by Harvard on how science should be taught. At that time, biology was largely descriptive and challenged the student's memory rather than his reasoning ability. Today's biology is actually bio-chemistry. Since knowledge of physics is more important today, physics is offered in the prime position.

When I was in high school, the state of Michigan mandated all students take biology. General science was the preliminary for biology, so all high school students -- whether in public, private or parochial schools -- took two years of science. Further courses were electives. From what I heard on the radio the other night, Boston Public School students now take three years of science, an improvement in educational terms that also better prepares students for life in a more complex world.

Earlier on in this thread, I said that the real problem is not with the quality of science teaching today but with the quality of science teaching in the past. That we are still contending with intelligent design and creationism illustrates the poverty of the science curriculum that today's parents and grandparents lived through. I wonder if these people would go so far as to say that God approves of computers, which is why we use them!

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Roger -- Your evaluation of the way honors classes are graded and the manner in which those grades count toward a GPA is incorrect. A student taking honors classes has to earn the extra point in order to be on the honor roll when the student takes honors classes.

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James, if you are still with us --- The course you described as Civics was actually what would be called Media today. Civics deals with the obligations of the citizen toward government and community.

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plainoldme wrote:

Brandon -- First of all, I know what your strategy is: it is to try to make me lose my temper. Sorry! You're too transparent. I don't fall for your gambit.

Second, I object to money grubbers without a clue as to what is going on in schools trying to profit from their own ignorance and aggression.
You wrote:Your objection to the concept of testing and accountability based on the fact that there are incompetent and apathetic testing companies is merely obtuse. Well, your use of the word obtuse here is incorrect, but, we'll let that go.

How was my use of the word "obtuse" incorrect?

Obtuse
ADJECTIVE: Inflected forms: ob·tus·er, ob·tus·est
1a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect. b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark.....

Source

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PatioDog -- If you are still with this thread --
I was told about seven or eight years ago, that the University of Washington had the best public school chemistry department in the country.

As to the employment possibilities for scientists, my first heart throb (who transferred frpm CalTech to the University of Michigan, because, allegedly, at the time, it wasn't possible to get into medical school from Cal Tech) said the country only needs about five physicists a year and the really smart fellows who had the potential to become physicists, recognized this and became engineers. Engineerings students at other schools were disappointing by comparison.

And we know the strides India has made in science education, leaving the US in the dust.

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Texan wrote about parents as problems.

This was covered very well by, hmmm, never looked at the masthead!, either Time or Newsweek in February of this year.

Parental interference in schools cuts both ways. I saw the parents of Winchester, MA improve the Lincoln Elementary School enormously. I saw parents step up to establish a nursery school in Dunstable, Ma to everyone's benefit. But, there are parents who do things like write essays for their kids and do their research for them. Not a good idea. Parents and teachers have to learn how to be partners!

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To the matter of teaching science to different levels:

I just posted above about the Boston School System's approach to science. In the physics classes, kids are asked to imagine a sport that can be played on the moon or to describe a model of bringing electricity for the first time to a developing area and, given that there is very little electricity available, imagining what appliances would be useful to the population. This is the sort of teaching gets the kids to the principles of physics and teaches critical thinking while piquing the interest of kids who think of themselves as future actors or busdrivers or football palyers.

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What can we do to help improve science education in the US?

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