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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 08:27 am
I would agree if it were not for the scientists who have absolutely no dog in this fight, who have and have never had any connection with the oil or coal industries, and who, for all I know, have never voted Republican, who agree with the policy the White House has taken.

Quarrel with them if you wish.

You have not given me any information from any source that is sufficiently persuasive for me to change my belief that we do not know why it is warmer now than it was a century ago or that it will be warmer still a century from now if we change nothing.

I don't have a dog in this fight either as I am perfectly willing to look at all sides. Are you?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 08:39 am
okie wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
okie wrote:
Steve fails to see the obvious.
Please enlighten me of the obvious, as you percieve it.


Nature is cyclical. Simple as that. If you want more detail, read the posts of Georgeob1 and Foxfyre, including the link, in the last 2 or 3 pages.


Thermodynamics suggests otherwise.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 08:41 am
I was just reading that New Delhi is having an ice storm, the first since 1935. It's the second unusually cold winter in a row there. I wonder how worried they are about global warming?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 08:52 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I was just reading that New Delhi is having an ice storm, the first since 1935. It's the second unusually cold winter in a row there. I wonder how worried they are about global warming?
As worried as any other responsible person should be.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 08:57 am
Of course they are worried about global warming, or as it should be called, climate instability; shifting weather patterns are signs of instability in the system, or, a shift to a new stability, which may not be as kind to us as the current stability is. Here in Austin it's been 75+ degrees for 3 weeks now (and we need rain desperately); there's no doubt our weather patterns have shifted somewhat.

It's hard to believe that people cannot understand that our climate could be much, much more deadly than it is now, without a huge change in temperature...

Cycloptichorn
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kermit
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 09:04 am
There was an article in the most recent New Yorker about global warming...has anyone read it yet?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 09:08 am
Can you check back over the weather record for the last several decades and find another time in which the temperature was 75+ degrees in the early winter in Austin? Or a time in which there was severe drought in early winter?

I remember a winter in Santa Fe NM in the 1950's that kids didn't wear coats to school for a week during late January and February. Everybody lamented the lack of snow for sledding and skiing. Santa Fe sits at 7000 feet above sea level. Quite unusual said the locals.

This was 20 years before even the 1970's international scare and conferences about global cooling and an imminent ice age.

There have been many winters since the 1950's in which there has been unusually warm weather in the high country. There were no doubt many winters before the 1950's in which there was unusually warm weather in the high country.

The weather is in a constant state of flux and our ability to accurately predict it is restricted to pretty short time frames though very loose seven year cycles and twenty year cycles and maybe hundred year cycles are still discernable in some areas.

We have a La Nina out there right now which local climatologists believe is responsible for New Mexico's unusually warm and dry weather right now. I wonder how many La Ninas have occurred over the last several centuries.

I still say lets watch and study and learn, but don't establish policy on what we don't know. I favor that approach about most things.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 09:10 am
kermit wrote:
There was an article in the most recent New Yorker about global warming...has anyone read it yet?


kermit

Yes. Typically wonderful New Yorker piece but doesn't really delve into the political component.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 09:30 am
Quote:

I still say lets watch and study and learn, but don't establish policy on what we don't know. I favor that approach about most things.


What, exactly, is wrong with playing it safe? That's the point of environmental legislation. We know our current pattern works, and we know that certain actions of ours affect that pattern; shouldn't we be careful?

I'd also like to share a suggestion that I read in a nice Heinlein novel this weekend: force factories and plants to intake water downstream from their own outlets. Makes 'em self-policing and cleaning instantly.

Cycloptichorn
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 09:31 am
Quote:
I don't have a dog in this fight either as I am perfectly willing to look at all sides. Are you?


fox

I'll just make a brief little comment here, then end off.

There are no longer 'two sides' if by that you mean some equal level of consensus in the community of independent scientists investigating the matter. And that disparity has moved in a single direction as more research and evidence entered the picture.

In addition, we now know (and only in part) to what degree the petroleum and energy industries (and political or ideological allies) have established and funded covert operations to deny and delay this consensus - for the obvious reasons.

Now, the important thing to try and understand and put our minds to is figuring out what to do. Part of ascertaining this, for non-experts like you and I, is figuring out who has been lying and obfuscating (or ideologically extremist and stupid) in the past so that we steer clear of the bullshit.

But I have a "prejudice" here. In a very uncareful and general way, we can consider two outcomes - inhibiting economic activity and the suffering that would result, or doing damage to the ecology of the planet (or significant parts of it) for possibly long duration and the suffering that would result. For me, it seems clear we ought to err in favor of seeking to avoid the latter of these. But as I said, that's an uncareful generalized dichotomy.
0 Replies
 
kermit
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 09:31 am
blatham - thank you for the post. This is for you and others who live outside of U.S. Could you share a little bit about how your respective country has been dealing with global warming (or...climate change...)? Small or large scale response.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 09:44 am
kermit wrote:
blatham - thank you for the post. This is for you and others who live outside of U.S. Could you share a little bit about how your respective country has been dealing with global warming (or...climate change...)? Small or large scale response.


I'm afraid we have been pretty much complete arseholes on the matter...

Quote:
OTTAWA - Canada is one of the worst environmental performers in the industrialized world, according to a comprehensive new report released today by the David Suzuki Foundation.

The Maple Leaf in the OECD: Comparing progress toward sustainability finds Canada ranks 28th out of the 30 member countries of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development based on 29 key environmental indicators. These include: energy consumption, water consumption, greenhouse gas emissions, air pollutants, pesticide use, and amount of protected areas.
link

Province by province, we don't fare much better either. In BC, mining, logging and fishing interests particularly wield an enormous amount of power in our government and our rivers and fish runs, for example, are not better for it.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 09:48 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I was just reading that New Delhi is having an ice storm, the first since 1935. It's the second unusually cold winter in a row there. I wonder how worried they are about global warming?


Foxfyre, as the "pro-blame it all on global warming" people have already pointed out, global warming means more instability in the weather. So no matter what happens, the argument is rigged, whether it gets cold or hot. I'm sure if they had been around in the 30's during the severe droughts and dust bowl, you can bet your bottom dollar on who was at fault for that. Of course droughts and floods are normal, but somehow such things are unusual to some people these days. There are such things in weather that could be called averages, but an "average" is definitely not the same as "normal."

By the way, I found the link about the study showing forests in Canada cause global warming. What are they going to do with this wayward scientist?
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/subscriber/life/story/3247408p-3760532c.html
Guess what his evidence is? You guessed it. Another "computer model."
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 11:07 am
Kermit, the US is doing fairly well reducing its CO2 emmissions in case these are in fact having a significant effect on global warming. Overall, we have proportionately reduced our industrially produced emissions more than Canada has managed though Canadian policy is more clearly defined as government policy than is ours. We have also done this without drastically altering the lifestyles of US citizens and I rather expect this trend will continue at least in the near future.

As Okie has noted, there will be those who will continue to blame global warming for all world problems and blame the current administration for all global warming. I haven't seen any diatribes re hangnails yet, but I'm sure they'll figure out some way to blame Bush for that too.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 11:56 am
Well, it is all Bush's fault, isn't it Fox? At least that's what they say on CNN...
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 12:00 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
As Okie has noted, there will be those who will continue to blame global warming for all world problems and blame the current administration for all global warming. I haven't seen any diatribes re hangnails yet, but I'm sure they'll figure out some way to blame Bush for that too.


Oh, please. Who blames "global warming for all world problems"? That's just foolish. That kind of statement is just a way to minimize the problems that global warming does cause.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 12:26 pm
Goddam my hangnail; it's all Bush's fault!
Fox, are you happy now?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 12:42 pm
okie wrote:

By the way, I found the link about the study showing forests in Canada cause global warming. What are they going to do with this wayward scientist?
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/subscriber/life/story/3247408p-3760532c.html
Guess what his evidence is? You guessed it. Another "computer model."

Interesting piece. This is an excellent example of the "science" that is being used to advocate the notion of accelerating global warming, atmospheric instability the need to wipe out or severely limit human civilizations as a necessary means of preventing it.

Scientists have career ambitioons just like everyone else. To advance they need to get published. To get published they need to focus their efforts on "hot" topical areas and on the specialized journals that spring up to support them. NPO advocacy groups accelerate the growth of favored "hot" topocal areas and stimulate intergovernmental activities and policy documents that in turn offer further grist for the mills of both the NPOs and the "scientists on the make". This is a fairly predictable process that has occurred in areas as wide ranging as; health care and disease prevention; the right way to externally stimulate economic and political development in poor, badly governed countries; and now global warming.

Very little of it has produced any tangible benefit for anyone but the various practicioners of the process itself who often do rise to a prominence they would otherwise not find.

In the case at hand the government of Canada has acccepted the Kyoto regime, but also put forward the interesting notion that, because of its large forest areas, limitations on their use of fossil fuels should be reduced relative to those applied to people in nations less gifted with such forests. The U.S. also put this argument forward during the Kyoto negotiation, but later took the more honorable course of rejecting the treaty entirely. Canada has clung to its Hypocrisy, the treaty and the forest argument.

Now an ambitious Stanford scientist has devised a numerical simulation that evidently considers the interplay of (only) two key variables in the myriad physical processes involved, namely the amount of carbon locked up in forests (until the tree dies and decays) and the associated moisture it releases into the atmosphere and cloud cover that results. He offers a "scientific" paper that debunks the Canadian forest argument - something that, in the current debate, is sure to get published and advance his career.

What is lost in all this is the fact that the climate of the earth has never been stable, either on geologic, millenial, century or decades-long time scales. Our planet's atmosphere is known to have been affected by the numerous shifts in the magnetic polarity of the planet, volcanism, asteroid impacts, continentaL drift, the advance and retreat of forests and deserts, the cycles of soilar activity, and many other factors that operate in a complex and highly non-linear way in which cause and effect become mixed and nearly everything effects everything else.

So in this milieu our ambitious Stanford scientist comes up with his absurdly simplifies numerical simulation of unspecified accuracy and rigor, announces his rather vague new finding - 'temperate zone forests are less effective in combatting warming than tropical ones', and gets himself published - a sure thing.

No one notices that despite the truly astounding advances in computing power over the past few decades, the very real science of numerical wheather prediction has hardly advanced at all in terms of the extent into the future in which its predictions are valid (about two weeks). This is an inescapable result of the intrinsic complexity and non-linearity of the interlocking processes themselves and the sensitive dependence on initial conditions exhibited by the equations being modelled. With this in mind, one should ask himself 'of what possible real scientific merit could be this long range, over-simplifified prediction in advancing the understanding of our atmosphere? The answer is - almost none at all. However in the very artificial, and unscientific, world of the advocates of limited human civilization and development, and the various hypocritical arguments about how those limits should be imposed or measured - all facilitated by a self-serving network of NGOs, academics, and international bureaucrats - , this is surely grist for the mill.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 01:09 pm
What exactly would have to happen to give an indicator that our climate is changing in a negative way? Because there doesn't seem to be any objective way of judging it according to you lot.

Also, this

Quote:
atmospheric instability the need to wipe out or severely limit human civilizations as a necessary means of preventing it.


Is known as Appealing to Extremes and is a logical fallacy. What you have described is quite a jump from limiting emissions and conserving our resources.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2006 01:18 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Can you check back over the weather record for the last several decades and find another time in which the temperature was 75+ degrees in the early winter in Austin? Or a time in which there was severe drought in early winter?

I remember a winter in Santa Fe NM in the 1950's that kids didn't wear coats to school for a week during late January and February. Everybody lamented the lack of snow for sledding and skiing. Santa Fe sits at 7000 feet above sea level. Quite unusual said the locals.

This was 20 years before even the 1970's international scare and conferences about global cooling and an imminent ice age.

There have been many winters since the 1950's in which there has been unusually warm weather in the high country. There were no doubt many winters before the 1950's in which there was unusually warm weather in the high country.

The weather is in a constant state of flux and our ability to accurately predict it is restricted to pretty short time frames though very loose seven year cycles and twenty year cycles and maybe hundred year cycles are still discernable in some areas.

We have a La Nina out there right now which local climatologists believe is responsible for New Mexico's unusually warm and dry weather right now. I wonder how many La Ninas have occurred over the last several centuries.

I still say lets watch and study and learn, but don't establish policy on what we don't know. I favor that approach about most things.


You still dont understand. I couldn't give a damn about kids not wearing coats to school in winter, or ice storms in New Delhi, I just point your attention to the level of CO2 in the atmosphere.
0 Replies
 
 

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