Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

global warming
...WOODSTOCK ELECTRIC UTILITY... this a -somewhat lenghty - report on the system implemented in woodstock . it gave the impetus to the ontario wide program to be started next year (plenty of other repports available through google). hbg

This statement may have been true pre-2000, but not so since. Calpine agressively built power plants in California as well as the rest of the nation. They built 90 power plants that were based on burning clean natural gas.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/21/BUGBMGB34H1.DTL&hw=calpine&sn=001&sc=1000



Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the aren't out to get you. Matter of fact, if you aren't caught up on the illegal horseshit that was perpetrated on Calif. by the power companies, you haven't been watching! Matter of fact, we're getting ready to throw "Kenny Boy" in jail for his shenanigans.




Again an incorrect statement. If the power companies want to try and cheat us again, we'll be happy to lock up their asses too!



Oh, good! More mercury in the oceans! Be sure to feed your kids lots of Atlantic Cod, Tuna, and Swordfish.



Pardon me, but Horseshit!! Bush has been protecting the Power Companies from upgrades to their equipment which were suppose to help clean up their ommissions. Now they are adding more nasty equipment because Bush made it possible for them to do so.



In respnse to your #1, Bush has made it possible for them to delay any better designs and systems. They would rather install the cheaper systems that pollute air and water. #2 I must admit that if you want nuclear power, I would just as soon they bury it in your backyard than mine.

Anon

Canada also has massive deposits of this crap. This is the nastiest burning of the coal offerings.

Anon

This is true!

California also has a million home target for solar installation. There are laws being passed right now to make it come about! We're practicing what we preach.

Anon

Anon voter gets the WEFT award for being wrong in every assertion of fact in his post above.


The Federal Government is prosecuting the executives of ENRON, not the state of California.

California still has the largest electrical power deficit (production minus consumption) of any state in the union - by a wide margin.

The financial losses under Gov. Davis occurred because the state tried to outsmart the power companies and came in a poor second. They created a state monopoly for thew purchase of power, assuming that would give them control of the market. Then, because the price (at that time) on the spot market was a good deal lower than that for long term contracts they legislated the requirement that the state agency purchase only in the spot market. Seeing this, all the brokers bought up the surplus power under long term contracts, drioving the spot market price through the roof. Not even a rookie broker would be this stupid. ENRON added to the problem with some fradulenmt trading but the principal losses were the results only of the state's greed and stupidity.

The relaxation of the Clean Air Act rules motivated and enabled ppower producers to install efficiency-enhancing upgrades in their older plasnts, thus reducing pollution, not increasing it. Previous rules created absurd economic disincentives for such upgrades, resulting in wide-scale unnecessary added pollution and fuel consumption in the majority of major power pllants that has lasted for more than a decade.

Ignorance of the facts and faulty logic can be a fatal combination.

Not so Obi Wan Kanobi!



Ah true ... and why are they being prosecuted?? What State did they manipulate the energy supplies in? What State took them to task, and got money back from them, along with a bunch of other power companies. What State brought the complaints in the first place? Have it your way George, as long as those responsible go to jail for what they've done, I could care less WHO does the prosecuting. I said we went after them and started the ball rolling, and they are in deep ****! The fact that Enron went down in disgrace and their employees went bust with their holdings makes my heart warm!! Maybe the next time some jerks want tp screw California, maybe they'll remember what happened to Enron.



Don't really know, but I'll concede the point on the grounds that I don't care. We're more than happy to pay fair rates for the electricity and gas. Suits me fine. I just don't care for the cheating utilities that think they can manipulate the market and not have to pay for it!



That deal was made in 1996 by our Republican Governor Pete Wilson. Davis inherited that lovely little piece of legislation from him. It should amuse you that "Kenny Boy" help them come up with that deal!



Yes, that was "Kenny Boys" plan when he helped set it up. They have been forced to give us back the money, and like I say, we're busy putting those responsible in jail!! (Oh, I'm sorry, the Feds are going to put them in jail )



You're hilarious! One thing you're right about ...Bush is all about relaxing clean air and clean water acts. I hope you live in a state that gets to suffer under his actions. California passes it's own laws regarding those issues. It's not going to affect us because we won't allow it. Suck it up George, when your kids get asthma, cancer, and the rest that goes with the George Bush plan for wrecking the environment, I won't feel sorry for them, or you. Breath deep!!



Which you will find out in due time!

Anon

I can't imagine 137 pages on this subject so far, but to make a comment, global warming is a joke. My last gas bill was almost $200. By the way, Enron crooks are going to jail. Government crooks never do. Proof that free enterprise works, for those of you that think government could do it better.

george,

Here's a stiff dose of reality for you!

Wilson on his screwups, He's Proud!!
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ad9afe16367.htm

US Senate upholds Bush aid to air polluters
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jan2003/poll-j25.shtml

Like you say ... Ignorance of the facts and faulty logic can be a fatal combination.

Anon

coal burning power stations
----------------------------------------
i'm all for clean air and i'm willing to pay for it.
about a month ago "business week' had an article stating that coal can be burnt safely without causing pollution . moreover the cost of a clean-burning plant is apparently not much more costly than one causing pollution . the article also stated that these plants are going on-line now . so perhaps there is hope of reducing pollution and prducing sufficient power ? hbg

the ontario power producers offer an up-to-the-minute graph of the power demand and prices online .
during the summer months when the demand was close to outstripping supply, the power operators encouraged all customers to keep an eye on their demand during peak hours and postpone power use to off-peak hours as much as possible. within a few days i noticed that the peak had ben reduced considerably and that the demand curve had flattened . the drop in power use after 8 pm was not as steep as it had previously been , a clear indication that users had started to shift use of appliances to a later time when more power is available .
it seems to me that much more could be done to reduce the peak power use in industry and households by good forecasting and power use - a cheap way of getting more bang for the buck . hbg

hbg, Consumer participation is a great idea, but most Americans doesn't seem to worry about energy cost when supplies are ample to COA for the short-term, then complain when prices spike.

c.i. : it took a few "brown-outs" and a good dose of P.R. to make people realize that there really is a supply problem . once interval meters are installed i think there is a good chance people will start to modify their consumption habit because it'll hit them in the pocketbook - let's hope so anyway !
all the best to you and your loved ones for the year 2006 !
have a good one , eh ! hbg

hbg, Have been going gang-busters in somewhat a similar fashion as you folks since retirement. We are getting up there in age, but we're not slowing down yet! Six trips in 2005. The BEST OF THE HOLIDAY SEASON and HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and your family. Give us a jingle if you're ever out this way.

SHALL WE RETURN TO THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD- NAMELY GLOBAL WARMING? It is not enough for people like Steve to say- You are wrong. They must show how the assertions below which contradict the "global warming thesis" are incorrect:

l. Surface temperatures on the earth have varied throughout the centuries. The Medieval Warm Period manifested warmer temperatures than today without the benefit of co2 produced by man.

2. The US Senate decisively voted against acceptance of the Kyoto Protocol in July 1997 with a DECISIVE vote of 95-0. One of the major sticking points was that the C02 emissions of China and India were not to be cut back because they were both classified as "developing countries

3. The National Academy of Sciences published its report in 2001 and found that a large portion of the research on "global warming" could only be classified as 'UNCERTAIN"

4. There was a strong surface warming between 1890 and 1940 followed by a pronounced cooling between 1940 and 1970( and warnings of a catasthropic ice age to come) then rising tempertures from 1970 to today.
Since CO2 emissions were insignificant in the early 20th century, it is a puzzle why substantial warming happened anyway. It could have been due to natural causes of Climate Change.

5. Recent warming trends have been measured only on the earth's surface. There are major uncertainties connected with those trends, one of which is the heat island effect. The important point is that satellite measurements do not show the warming trends.

6. The Academy pointed out a serious problem with the theories concerning global warming. They noted that "The nature and magnitude of hydrological feedbacks give rise to the LARGEST SOURCE OF UNCERTAINTY ABOUT CLIMATE SENSITIVITY since all of the computer models assume that water vapor will amplify the small bit of warming expected from an increase of carbon dioxide concentration in the air. If that assumption is untrue and the theories of Richard Lindzen, perhaps the US's foremost professor of Meterology at MIT hold true, then the thoery of global warming falls apart.
Dr. Lindzen holds that clouds tend to reduce much of the warming expected fromCO2 since he states that cirrus clouds act as thermostats. Dr, Lindzen points out that both clouds and water vapor-EACH MORE IMPORTANT IN THE GREENHOUSE EFFECT THAN CO2 ARE SIMPLY NOT WELL ENOUGH UNDERSTOOD BY CLIMATOLOGISTS.


7. The National Academy of Sciences points out that without computer models there would be no evidence of global warming, no Kyoto. By simulating the climate on giant, ultra fast computers, scholars try to learn just how it will react to new stimulus--like a doubling of CO2. The NSA points out that AN IDEAL COMPUTER MODEL WOULD HAVE TO TRACK FIVE MILLION PARAMETERS OVER THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH AND THROUGH THE ATMOSPHERE AND INCORPORATE ALL RELEVANT INTERACTIONS AMONG LAND, SEA, AIR, ICE AND VEGETATION.

The NAS concludes that "Climate models are imperfect. Their simulation skill is limited by uncertainties in thier formulation, the limited size of their calculations, and the difficulty in interpreting their answers that exhibit as much complexity as in nature"

8. Perhaps, more important, the NAS report highlights the difficulty in understanding NATURAL CLIMATE CHANGE. If we can't understand those, then we can't understand the human effect. One of the MAJOR natural component in changing the climate is--the sun. New findings, based on satellite measurements,suggest that the heat emanating from the sun to the earth changes significantly on time scales of decades to centuries. NASA satellites have uncovered the fact that the sun's changing magnetism over the course of its sunspot cycle is accompanied by a change in total energy output. SINCE THE SUN IS AS MAGNETICALLY ACTIVE TODAY AS IT HAS BEEN IN 400 YEARS OF DIRECT TELESCOPE OBSERVATIONS, IT MAY BE THAT THE SUN IS HEATING THE EARTH WITH LITTLE THAT MAN CAN DO ABOUT IT.

This is a sonar picture of the Australian plate (flat area lower left) pushing against and getting submerged under the Indonesian plate (upper right the coast of Sumatra). The pressure is increasing and another massive earthquake is expected soon.

Slightly off-topic but made me think there are such tremendous forces at work in our planet that this "global warming" discussion seems rather pointless -- sure the planet warms up and cools down every few millenia no matter whether we're around or not, so what do you all say we should DO about it???

The last two posts incorporate something not so common anymore. Its something called COMMON SENSE. Thanks!

Careful Louise. Galileo got in serious trouble for this sort of thinking a few centuries ago. This is one of the central tenants of political correctitude, and the credulous crowd does not take heresy lightly.

I don't think, anyone ever suggested that the 'problems' with the various earth plates are men-made.

True enough Walter. The point here may be that amidst all the constant change to which our old earth has been subject, and which continues without respect to our puny existence, the conceit that ,the flatulence of our bodies and factories could somehow upset the whole thing, is, itself quite remarkable.

Don't doubt that at all.