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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 03:36 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
However I find his (David King's) smarmy bowing to the most unscientific and narrow-minded prejudices of the green constituency rather lacking in principle and itself, unscientific.


The UK chief scientific officer (David King) wrote

Quote:
If any government tried to persuade me to change my scientific views for political purposes I would certainly resign.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 03:48 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
However I find his (David King's) smarmy bowing to the most unscientific and narrow-minded prejudices of the green constituency rather lacking in principle and itself, unscientific.


The UK chief scientific officer (David King) wrote

Quote:
If any government tried to persuade me to change my scientific views for political purposes I would certainly resign.


I bet you know at least one politican who has said "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you" or "I only want to be a servant of the people" too.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 03:57 pm
David King is a man of principle. A man of scientific principle. Unlike climate change deniers and crystal wavers.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 04:47 pm
He is not without his critics though

Hans H J Labohm writes:
"Concerning the basic assumptions of Kyoto, Illarionov commented:
Quote:
'Basically, none of the assertions made in the Kyoto Protocol and the 'scientific' theory on which the Kyoto Protocol is based has been borne out by actual data. We are not seeing any high frequency of emergency situations or events.

There has been no increase in the number of floods. Just as there has been no increase in the number of droughts. We can see that the speed of the wind in the hails in some areas is decreasing contrary to the statements made by the people who support the Kyoto Protocol. We are not witnessing a higher incidence of contagious diseases, and if there is a rise, it has nothing to do with climate change. If there is an insignificant increase in the temperature it is not due to anthropogenic factors but to the natural factors related to the planet itself and solar activity.

There is no evidence confirming a positive linkage between the level of carbon dioxide and temperature changes. If there is such a linkage, it is a reverse nature. In other words, it is not carbon dioxide that influences the temperature on Earth, but it just the reverse: temperature fluctuations are caused by solar activity influence the concentration of carbon dioxide.'

After having complained about the behaviour of the British delegation, headed by Sir David King, who - unsuccessfully - tried to exclude certain 'undesirable' scientists from taking the floor, Illarionov went on to criticize the ideological and philosophical basis on which the Kyoto Protocol is built:

'That ideological base can be juxtaposed and compared with man-hating totalitarian ideology with which we had the bad fortune to deal during the 20th century, such as National Socialism, Marxism, Eugenics, Lysenkoism and so on. All methods of distorting information existing in the world have been committed to prove the alleged validity of these theories.

Misinformation, falsification, fabrication, mythology, propaganda. Because what is offered cannot be qualified in any other way than myth, nonsense and absurdity.'"


Whole article
HERE

Short biography - Hans H J Labohm
http://www.clingendael.nl/staff/?id=39
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 04:59 pm
Well, a Dutch libertarian economist - what else would I suspect :wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 05:06 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, a Dutch libertarian economist - what else would I suspect :wink:


Do you have anything to dispute what he cites, though Walter? Is he misquoting anybody? Is he misrepresenting anything? Please be specific.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 05:44 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
David King is a man of principle. A man of scientific principle. Unlike climate change deniers and crystal wavers.


I believe his own words in the very Guardian piece you posted here strongly suggests otherwise.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 05:57 pm
blatham wrote:
I have no strong animus against nuclear, by the way, though waste is an issue and not insignificant.


If all the actinides are used to fuel fast neutron reactors, the waste is much less of a problem.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2005 06:05 pm
Thomas wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
As a result we built 105 plants with about 85 distinct designs. Many were very well-conceived and executed, but a number were not. As a result we unnecessarily repeated an expensive learning process many times.

Aren't General Electric and Westinghouse both selling reactors of well-engineered, standardized designs to China, Brazil, and other emerging markets? I think I read an article in the Wall Street Journal that said so, but I'm not entirely sure. But if I remember correctly, the private sector does supply standardized civilian designs. It's just that now that they're offered, the US and much of Europe aren't demanding any new nuclear reactors, standardized or not.


The Bush Administration has pushed some strong incentives for the power industry to build new plants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Power_2010_Program


And it has started to get results:

http://www.gepower.com/about/press/en/2005_press/092605a.htm



I think I also heard that Finland ordered some new nuclear power plants, and that France is likely to.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Dec, 2005 01:15 am
Foxfyre wrote:

Do you have anything to dispute what he cites, though Walter? Is he misquoting anybody? Is he misrepresenting anything? Please be specific.


No, not at all.

I just want to say that your counter-argument for critics against Sir King's scientific principles comes from a Dutch libertarian economist.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Dec, 2005 02:08 am
If Walter Hinteler can dispose of a person's scientifically based testimony on the basis of his field of expertise allegedly modified by his political leanings and his nationality, I am very much afraid that anything that slithers out of the Socialist state of Germany can be critiqued in the same way.

If Walter Hinteler really read the piece, he would have noted that the "Dutch Libertarian Economist" was quoting Illarionov and not giving his own view. It would be well if everyone paid attention to the substance of the posts and the attributions in them.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Dec, 2005 12:01 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Do you have anything to dispute what he cites, though Walter? Is he misquoting anybody? Is he misrepresenting anything? Please be specific.


No, not at all.

I just want to say that your counter-argument for critics against Sir King's scientific principles comes from a Dutch libertarian economist.


Well as Mort points out, the writer wasn't giving his own views but reporting the views of another. Anyway I wasn't making a counter argument. I was only noting that King has his critics. If you wish for me to make an argument, however, I will note, as George pointed out, that King's critics may be justified in their criticism. Smile
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Dec, 2005 12:23 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
David King is a man of principle. A man of scientific principle. Unlike climate change deniers and crystal wavers.


I believe his own words in the very Guardian piece you posted here strongly suggests otherwise.


How is King condemned out of his own mouth as unprincipled? He supports a new nuclear power programme. He said he would resign if he came under political pressure to modify his views. I think you're just biased against the Guardian George.

Speaking of which its new 'Berliner' format and stunning print quality make it a contender for best newspaper on the planet imo. Two brilliant articles over the weekend

by Princeton University History professor Linda Colley on American and British imperialism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1669330,00.html

and a piece by Ian Cobain on British a torture centre in Germany which made me feel thoroughly sick and ashamed

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1669544,00.html
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Dec, 2005 05:09 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

How is King condemned out of his own mouth as unprincipled? He supports a new nuclear power programme. He said he would resign if he came under political pressure to modify his views. I think you're just biased against the Guardian George.

Speaking of which its new 'Berliner' format and stunning print quality make it a contender for best newspaper on the planet imo. Two brilliant articles over the weekend

by Princeton University History professor Linda Colley on American and British imperialism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1669330,00.html

and a piece by Ian Cobain on British a torture centre in Germany which made me feel thoroughly sick and ashamed

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1669544,00.html


I was referring to Mr. King's overwrought protestations of his unsullied scientific integrity, coupled as they were with his odd, somewhat out of place, affirmation that, though he recognizes the utility of nuclear power as a means of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, he steadfastly opposes any government aid or subsidy for it. This was a bit incongruous coming from one who, at the same time advocates (and in some cases oversees) government aid to other "sustainable" forms of energy production. Clearly a sop thrown to the loonie greens who are his most important public constituency (and whose opposition to nuclear power is equally illogical). I am also aware of Mr. King's other attempts to silence contrarian views from within the scientific community as they relate to the orthodox cult of accelerating global warming. In short he is a hypocrite and, to paraphrase the Bard, 'doth protest too much' an innocence whiich I believe he lost long ago.


I readily accept your charge that I don't like the Guardian. I see it as far more a trumpet for certain fixed points of view than the guardian of truth that it purports to be. The clarity and beauty of its typeface may well be all that you claim. It's what is printed that I generally don't like.

I took the trouble of reading carefully the two pieces you linked.

Linda Colley's piece on comparative imperialism was a typical product of our liberal academic establishment, fit only for the Guardian and favored liberal journals, but not able to withstand even moderate intellectual scrutiny. Armed only with the observation that there were/are altruistic components to both the European imperialisms and the American one which she seeks to associate them, she concludes that they are equivalent. This is a both a tortured stretching of the meaning of words such as "empire" and "imperialism", and a laughable non sequitor. Though it is delivered with suitable academic piety and pretense, it is sophistry. There have been no analogues to Rhodes or Raffles in the American postwar "imperialism' (unless you consider Liberia to be the model for it all). While we sought reliable overseas sources for needed commodities, we did not attempt to regulate their trade or prevent the development of indigenous industry as in the European model -- and, most importantly, we did not attempt to directly govern their lives. On the contrary we have (during this period at least) been consistent advocates of free trade, and (unless we thought our security was seriously threatened) free political development. Nothing in India, Africa, Southeast Asia or the Americas threatened the security of England, France, Spain, Portugual, or The Netherlands in any way at all. There is no real analogy here.

I can't really comment on the piece about the 1947 British prison in Germany, except to note that its publication is presumably intended to associate these events with allegations currently afoot about American treatment of detainees. However, taking the descriptions offered of the treatment of the prisoners in this camp as literaly true, one can note that the accusations levied against the United States in this area aren't even in the same league with them. What then is the point?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Dec, 2005 05:18 pm
George writes
Quote:
I can't really comment on the piece about the 1947 British prison in Germany, except to note that its publication is presumably intended to associate these events with allegations currently afoot about American treatment of detainees. However, taking the descriptions offered of the treatment of the prisoners in this camp as literaly true, one can note that the accusations levied against the United States in this area aren't even in the same league with them. What then is the point?


And also pertinent is why is it posted on a thread related to global warming?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:27 am
Foxfyre wrote:
And also pertinent is why is it posted on a thread related to global warming?
Because we were discussing David King's piece on greenhouse gas emission which was printed in the Guardian, a paper which George does not like, because its the Guardian. I was just trying to support the paper by citing other examples of its wide ranging content.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:40 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
And also pertinent is why is it posted on a thread related to global warming?
Because we were discussing David King's piece on greenhouse gas emission which was printed in the Guardian, a paper which George does not like, because its the Guardian. I was just trying to support the paper by citing other examples of its wide ranging content.


LOL, okay. Fair enough.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 10:50 am
U.S. greenhouse gas emissions increased by 2.0 percent in 2004,
from 6,983.2 million metric tons carbon dioxide equivalent (MMTCO2e)
in 2003 to 7,122.1 MMTCO2e in 2004, according to 'Emissions of
Greenhouse Gases in the United States 2004', a report released today
by the Energy Information Administration (EIA). U.S. greenhouse gas
emissions per unit of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) fell from 677
metric tons per million 2000 constant dollars of GDP (MTCO2e/$Million
GDP) in 2003 to 662 MTCO2e /$Million GDP in 2004, a decline of 2.1
percent."

Source: Energy Information Administration: Emissions of the Greenhouse Gases in the United States 2004 (PDF)
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:27 am
Walter, could you provide us the same data for (say) Canada and Germany?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:32 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Walter, could you provide us the same data for (say) Canada and Germany?


Not at the moment, I only was aware of my above quote since it was "in the ticker".

When I'll have the time for that, I'll try to find the asked for reports and translate them (at least the one from Germany). Will last some time, though.
0 Replies
 
 

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