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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 10:38 pm
yep, they do. . you have to sneak up behind them, raise a paw and tickle it on the bottom (of the paw) and theyll show you their webbed feets.No problem.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 10:41 pm
Laughing
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 10:42 pm
This would be funnier if it wasn't so close to being true if we actually do meet the standards required in the present energy bill plus the mandates in the latest international game plan to combat global warming:

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/payn080423_04_cmyk.jpg
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2008 12:36 am
FM - So you are for are all for cleaner eviromental standards, just not for the reasons of AGW.

Did I get that right?

T
K
O
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2008 04:01 am
pretty much. I think that acid deposition is a CO2 and NOx result. ACid rain is backing off a bit but not as much as it oughta.

Im just not a cutomer of the global warming data. I believe a lot of it is merely asserting that a "trend" is occuring from short term data.
The story about dying polar bears, and CO2 driving temperature is just incorrect.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2008 08:00 am
FM cites a resolving but still very real issue of acid rain. HighSeas keeps us reminded of the heavy metals pollution in our oceans and similar issues that are in fact real, that do measurable damage to the living things on our planet, and must be seriously addressed. Surely, even the most hard core AGW proponent must now be considering the possibility that CO2 in the atmosphere may not be the serious problem some seem to hope that it is. For me, it would not be improbable that some absolutely KNOW that CO2 is not a serious problem or any problem at all but are perpetuating the myth to protect their funding and/or for political purposes.

But we do know that industrial processes can and do pollute our environment. We have made huge strides in correcting and/or reversing a lot of that but we must always be vigilant and keep improving the technology to deal with it.

Victor Hanson, controversial perhaps but never without something significant to say, brings us back to nuclear as well as affirming an opinion others (including me) have expressed that we are in fact going to have to live with coal and petroleum in the near future while we work on long range solutions:

April 24, 2008
A New Environmentalism
By Victor Davis Hanson

Tuesday was Earth Day, and it reminded us how environmentalism has helped to preserve the natural habitat of the United States -- reducing the manmade pollution of our soils, air and water that is a byproduct of comfortable modern industrial life.

But now we are in a new phase of global environmental challenges, as billions of people across an interconnected and resource-scarce world seek an affluent lifestyle once confined to Europe and the U.S.

No longer are the old environmental questions of pollution versus conservation so simply framed. Instead, the choices facing us, at least for the next few decades, are not between bad and good, but between bad and far worse -- and involve wider questions of global security, fairness and growing scarcity.

One example of where these diverse and often complex concerns meet is the debate over transportation. Until hydrogen fuel cells or electric batteries can power cars economically and safely, we will still be reliant on gasoline or similar combustible fuels. But none of our current ways in which we address the problem of transportation fuel are without some sort of danger.

We can, for example, keep importing a growing share of our petroleum needs. That will ensure the global oil supply remains tight and expensive. Less-developed, authoritarian countries like Russia, Sudan and Venezuela will welcome the financial windfall, and keep polluting their tundra, coasts, deserts and lakes to pump as much as they can.

Rising world oil prices ensure that Vladimir Putin, or his handpicked successor, can continue to bully Europe; that Hugo Chavez can intimidate his neighbors; that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad can promise Israel's destruction; and that al-Qaida and its affiliates can be funded by sympathetic Middle East sheiks. Such regional strongmen and terrorists cease being mere thugs and evolve into strategic threats once they have billions of petrodollars.

The U.S., in taking advantage of a cheap dollar, may set records in exporting American goods and services this year. But we will still end up with massive trade deficits, given that we are importing every day over 12 million barrels of oil, now at over at $100 each on the world market. It takes a lot of American wheat, machinery and computer software to pay a nearly half-trillion-dollar annual tab for imported oil.

An alternative is to concentrate more on biofuels. Currently, American farmers are planting the largest acreage of corn in over 60 years. But the result is that fuel now competes with food production -- and not just here, as Europe and South America likewise turn to ethanols.

One result is higher corn prices, which means climbing food bills for cattle, pigs and poultry, and thus skyrocketing meat, pork, chicken and turkey prices. Plus, with more acreage devoted to corn, there is less for other crops like cotton, wheat, rice and soy -- and the prices of those commodities are soaring as well.

Americans' increasing use of homegrown ethanol seems to be raising the price of food for the world's poor, just as our importation of oil enriches the world's already wealthy and dangerous.

What, then, is the least pernicious alternative -- and the most environmentally, financially and ethically sound?

Unfortunately, for a while longer it is not just to trust in promising new technologies like wind and solar power; for decades to come, these will only provide a fraction of our energy needs.

Instead, aside from greater conservation, we must develop more traditional energy resources at home. That would mean building more nuclear power plants, intensifying efforts at mining and burning coal more cleanly -- and developing more domestic oil, while retooling our vehicles to be even lighter and more fuel-efficient.

Nuclear power poses risks of proper disposal of radioactive wastes. Coal heats up the atmosphere. But both can also reduce our need to import fossil fuels to run our generators, while offering electrical energy to charge efficient and clean cars of the not-too-distant future.

No one wants a nuclear plant in his county. But, then, no one wants to leave the country bankrupt paying for imported fuel, or vulnerable by empowering hostile foreign oil producers, or insensitive to the price of food for the poor.

It is also time to re-evaluate domestic oil production in environmental -- and moral --terms. The question is no longer simply whether we want to drill in the Alaskan wilderness or off the Florida or California coasts. Rather, the dilemma is whether by doing so, we can mitigate the world's ecological risks beyond our shores, deny dictators financial clout, get America out of debt, and help the poor afford food.

We may not like oil platforms off the beach or mega-tankers in Arctic waters, but the alternatives for now are far worse -- in both environmental and ethical terms.
LINK

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/ethkills.jpg
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2008 07:01 pm
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb
As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

THE DISSENTS OF THE SCIENTIFIC DISSENTERS
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 12:51 pm
Foxfyre - thanks for bringing up the polar bears (and I know Farmerman also loves animals as much as we do), but your recollection isn't quite correct; the bears never changed, they just went on being polar bears until the pole froze again:

Quote:
We have this specimen that confirms the polar bear was a morphologically distinct species at least 100,000 years ago, and this basically means that the polar bear has already survived one interglacial period," explained Professor Ingolfsson.

.........."And what's interesting about that is that the Eeemian - the last interglacial - was much warmer than the Holocene (the present).


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7132220.stm
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 12:56 pm
High Seas wrote:
Foxfyre - thanks for bringing up the polar bears (and I know Farmerman also loves animals as much as we do), but your recollection isn't quite correct; the bears never changed, they just went on being polar bears until the pole froze again:

Quote:
We have this specimen that confirms the polar bear was a morphologically distinct species at least 100,000 years ago, and this basically means that the polar bear has already survived one interglacial period," explained Professor Ingolfsson.

POLAR BEAR (URSUS MARITIMUS)

Largest of five living bear species of Ursus genus
Brown bear (U. arctos) is nearest evolutionary cousin
Two species able to produce fertile hybrid offspring
Highly specialised predator of seals - but will take other prey
Global population of polar bears may number 20-25,000
Most recent IUCN Red List status: Vulnerable
Previous oldest recovered remains are about 70,000 years old
"And what's interesting about that is that the Eeemian - the last interglacial - was much warmer than the Holocene (the present).


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7132220.stm


It wasn't you who posted information on the browner polar bears awhile back? Seems like somebody mentioned that during period when the arctic ice retreats, successive generations of bears became less white. They didn't stop being polar bears but just adapted to their habitat or something like that. But my sole impression on 'morphing bears' was based on that post and the information (and/or my memory) could easily have been incorrect.
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 12:59 pm
Foxfyre - it's further down on the article just posted:

Quote:
Professor Ingolfsson is hopeful the bears will cope - and believes the palaeo-record will offer some reassurance.

"The polar bear is basically a brown bear that decided some time ago that it would be easier to feed on seals on the ice. So long as there are seals, there are going to be polar bears. I think the threat to the polar bears is much more to do with pollution, the build up of heavy metals in the Arctic.

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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 01:00 pm
P.S. no, I never posted anything about the bears becoming less white - never read such a thing, either.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 01:00 pm
High Seas wrote:
Foxfyre - it's further down on the article just posted:

Quote:
Professor Ingolfsson is hopeful the bears will cope - and believes the palaeo-record will offer some reassurance.

"The polar bear is basically a brown bear that decided some time ago that it would be easier to feed on seals on the ice. So long as there are seals, there are going to be polar bears. I think the threat to the polar bears is much more to do with pollution, the build up of heavy metals in the Arctic.



Ah okay. The brown bear thing may be what I read. I am always looking for something to reassure me that I'm not totally losing it. Smile
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 01:03 pm
LOL - mind you, I did once post that they might have to mate with the brown bears if they can't find food in the Arctic, so you're very, very far from losing it if your memory goes that far back.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 01:06 pm
Here is an interesting article about the polar bear population worldwide...

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=21966

Quote:
The U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) on September 7 claimed that two-thirds of the world's polar bears may die by 2050 due to global warming. Such claims are strongly contradicted by real-world evidence.

There are currently more than 25,000 wild polar bears in the world, and their numbers are growing - not declining - at an explosive pace in this time of "unprecedented global warming." According to the February 7, 2005 Edinburgh Scotsman ( http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=143012005), "The world's polar bear population is on the increase despite global warming.

"According to new research," the Scotsman reports, "the numbers of the giant predator have grown by between 15 and 25 per cent over the last decade.

"We're seeing an increase in bears that's really unprecedented, and in places where we're seeing a decrease in the population it's from hunting, not from climate change," Canadian polar bear expert Mitch Taylor told the Scotsman.

The March 9, 2007 London Telegraph confirmed the ongoing polar bear population explosion ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/09/wpolar09.xml). "A survey of the animals' numbers in Canada's eastern Arctic has revealed that they are thriving, not declining," the Telegraph reports.

"In the Davis Strait area, a 140,000-square kilometre region, the polar bear population has grown from 850 in the mid-1980s to 2,100 today," added the Telegraph.

Indeed, polar bears evolved from brown bears anywhere from 200,000 years ago ( http://www.alaskazoo.org/willowcrest/polarbearhome.htm) to 3 million years ago ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/wildfacts/factfiles/7.shtml). They survived at least one period when polar temperatures were at least 6 degrees Celsius warmer than today ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ice_Age_Temperature.png) and perhaps temperatures as warm as 15 degrees Celsius warmer than today ( http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070705/greenland_dna_070705/20070705?hub=SciTech).

Given that polar bear numbers are rapidly increasing and that they survived substantially warmer periods than is expected anytime in the foreseeable future, it is safe to dismiss this latest global warming scare as little more than fantasy.


Before anyone says anything, I know nothing about the Heartland Institute or its political leanings.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 01:48 pm
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb
As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

THE DISSENTS OF THE SCIENTIFIC DISSENTERS
Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report

18.
Particle Physicist Jasper Kirkby, a research scientist at CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, believes his research will reveal that the sun and cosmic rays are a "part of the climate-change cocktail." Kirkby runs a CLOUD (Cosmics Leaving Outdoor Droplets) project that examines how the sun and cosmic rays impact clouds and subsequently the climate. In a February 23, 2007 Canadian National Post article, CERN asserted, "Clouds exert a strong influence on the Earth's energy balance, and changes of only a few per cent have an important effect on the climate." According to the National Post article, "Dr. Kirkby has assembled a dream team of atmospheric physicists, solar physicists, and cosmic ray and particle physicists from 18 institutes around the world, including the California Institute of Technology and Germany's Max-Planck Institutes, with preliminary data expected to arrive this coming summer. The world of particle physics is awaiting these results with much anticipation because they promise to unlock mysteries that can tell us much about climate change, as well as other phenomena." Kirkby once said his research into the sun and cosmic rays "will probably account for somewhere between a half and the whole of the increase in the Earth's temperature that we have seen in the last century."
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 02:17 pm
ican711nm wrote:
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb
As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.


[/quote]
400 isn't a minority of those publishing on global warming?

Let's see.. from 2003-2007 there were 538 papers published on climate change. Most were written by 2-3 scientists. Even assuming an average of 2 per paper that means that the 400 is NOT a majority of published scientists.

From 1993-2003 there were 928 papers written on climate change. ZERO formed the opinion that ican is promoting as being a majority of published scientists..
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

That means of 928 scientific papers published, NONE of the authors disagreed with the premise of global warming occurring and likely being caused by humans.

So who are these people that ican is promoting? Obviously they are "scientists" that don't write technical science articles for science magazines. What research have they published? None it seems.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 02:32 pm
Quote:
parados wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb
As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.



400 isn't a minority of those publishing on global warming?

Let's see.. from 2003-2007 there were 538 papers published on climate change. Most were written by 2-3 scientists. Even assuming an average of 2 per paper that means that the 400 is NOT a majority of published scientists.

From 1993-2003 there were 928 papers written on climate change. ZERO formed the opinion that ican is promoting as being a majority of published scientists..
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

That means of 928 scientific papers published, NONE of the authors disagreed with the premise of global warming occurring and likely being caused by humans.

So who are these people that ican is promoting? Obviously they are "scientists" that don't write technical science articles for science magazines. What research have they published? None it seems.


Ican's posts seem to be clearly identifying each scientist with full name, credentials, affiliation, and where you can find their comments published.

Perhaps , as rebuttal, you could put up say 401 names of bonafide scientists who have remained pro-AGW propoents and incude the same information?
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 03:19 pm
ican is putting up opinions of "scientists" that are not part of any published scientific work.

There is a difference between opinion and science. Science papers are something that can be scientifically checked by others. Of the 938 papers of SCIENCE published not one expresses an opinion like those that ican is quoting. The SCIENCE is quite different from their opinion.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 03:24 pm
parados wrote:
ican is putting up opinions of "scientists" that are not part of any published scientific work.

There is a difference between opinion and science. Science papers are something that can be scientifically checked by others. Of the 938 papers of SCIENCE published not one expresses an opinion like those that ican is quoting. The SCIENCE is quite different from their opinion.


He didn't say they were part of any 'published scientific work' and I didn't ask you for references to 'published scientific work'. I made it a lot easier. I asked for 401 scientists who have published their opinions that AGW is happening, it is a problem, and it should be addressed on a global level.

Just give us their names, affiliation, credentials, and where we can see their written views on AGW. You have inferred that there are a lot more than 400 of them so how hard could that be? Or perhaps you would like to retract your criticism of Ican's statement?
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 03:52 pm
Scientists normally deal with their area of expertise. Some examples.


http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abstracts/2007/Hansen_etal_2.html
Science published by....
Hansen, J., Mki. Sato, P. Kharecha, G. Russell, D.W. Lea, and M. Siddall, 2007: Climate change and trace gases.


http://sp.lyellcollection.org/cgi/content/abstract/288/1/1
W. Dragoni1 & B. S. Sukhija

http://www.clim-past-discuss.net/4/289/2008/cpd-4-289-2008.html
M. Domroes and D. Schaefer
http://www.clim-past-discuss.net/4/495/2008/cpd-4-495-2008.html
same authors as above

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7089/abs/nature04539.html
Christiaan Both1,2, Sandra Bouwhuis1,3, C. M. Lessells1 & Marcel E. Visser1

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/4/1406
Mark B. Dyurgerov*, and Mark F. Meier

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/45/15827
Robert B. Jackson and William H. Schlesinger

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/305/5686/994
Gerald A. Meehl* and Claudia Tebaldi

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/105/11/4197
Brian Beckage, Ben Osborne*, Daniel G. Gavin, Carolyn Pucko*, Thomas Siccama, and Timothy Perkins

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/5/4/abstract/
Max Levitan and William J Etges

http://www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net/8/1757/2008/acpd-8-1757-2008.html
G. B. Hedegaard1,2, J. Brandt1, J. H. Christensen1, L. M. Frohn1, C. Geels1, K. M. Hansen1, and M. Stendel2

http://www.esajournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1890%2F060148&ct=1
Margaret A Palmer1,2,*, Catherine A Reidy Liermann3, Christer Nilsson3, Martina Flörke4, Joseph Alcamo4, P Sam Lake5, and Nick Bond5


12 papers on several topics with 40 different authors that all don't agree with ican and his "dissenting scientists." They range from how climate change has affected wildlife to how it affects pollution to possible changes in river basins

Of course this is only 12 of the 928 or more SCIENTIFIC papers published by various authors that all seem to not be on the side of what ican is peddling.
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