Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

Timber must be the tenth person posting about Mars warming. Is there a chapter on Mars in the Little Republican Party Handbook?

...

And if I can show that Venus is cooling faster than Mars is warming, do I win?

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Hmmmm.....

Foxy, you say

Foxfyre wrote:

I wasn't criticizing your sources.

So if you didn't critizise the the DoC or NASA or NOAA, why did you call them

"envivonmental activists", "leftwing wackos", "leftwing groups"?

And their results are

"junk science", "unproven testimony", "smoke and mirrors deception", "inexact and speculative science", "fuzzy and disputed science"?

Well, okay, that was owned to the multiple posts, but still. I think you're not being honest when you say you don't critizise the sources.

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old europe wrote:

Timber must be the tenth person posting about Mars warming. Is there a chapter on Mars in the Little Republican Party Handbook?

Any righht-wing conservative blog links to that.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

old europe wrote:
Timber must be the tenth person posting about Mars warming. Is there a chapter on Mars in the Little Republican Party Handbook?

Any righht-wing conservative blog links to that.

Oh. I didn't know that. I don't frequent any -wing blog. Thanks, Walter.

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old europe wrote:

And if I can show that Venus is cooling faster than Mars is warming, do I win?

No you don't, because Timber's point was that it's foolish to assume that there is one canonical climate for a planet, and that governments ought to prevent deviations of the actual climate from it. This point would be supported, not contradicted, by Venus cooling faster than Mars is warming.

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Thomas wrote:

old europe wrote:
And if I can show that Venus is cooling faster than Mars is warming, do I win?

No you don't, because Timber's point was that it's foolish to assume that there is one canonical climate for a planet, and that governments ought to prevent deviations of the actual climate from it. This point would be supported, not contradicted, by Venus cooling faster than Mars is warming.

Wait. There's no canonical climate for a planet, and evidence for this is the canonical observation of Mars warming?

I'm lost, Thomas. Not being disingenious, but, uh, what?

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Ehem, and oe never really said that Venus was is cooling faster.

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old europe wrote:

Wait. There's no canonical climate for a planet, and evidence for this is the canonical observation of Mars warming?

Global warming on Mars affirms that climate change is a fact of every planet's life, and suggests that the benefits of preventing it on Earth are greatly overestimated.

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Now I'm lost.

You mean, those little green Marsmen had done everything possible - but their planet still gets warmer and warmer?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

You mean, those little green Marsmen had done everything possible - but their planet still gets warmer and warmer?

No. I mean there were no little green men on mars to do anything wrong -- but their planet still gets warmer and warmer.

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Thomas wrote:

old europe wrote:
Wait. There's no canonical climate for a planet, and evidence for this is the canonical observation of Mars warming?

Global warming on Mars affirms that climate change is a fact of every planet's life, and suggests that the benefits of preventing it on Earth are greatly overestimated.

That didn't get you out of the logical trap, Thomas.

Either all the observations on Earth didn't render any results that can be universally agreed upon (and the same is true for Mars, too), OR from our limited observations of Mars we can be absolutely sure that Mars is warming (and how could we then not be sure about what's going on on our planet?).

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old europe wrote:

Either all the observations on Earth didn't render any results that can be universally agreed upon (and the same is true for Mars, too), OR from our limited observations of Mars we can be absolutely sure that Mars is warming (and how could we then not be sure about what's going on on our planet?).

That would be an excellent argument if I had claimed there is no global warming on Earth. I challenge you to show me where I made that claim. (I'm not even sure Timber made this claim for that matter, but I'm willing to be persuaded that he did.)

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Hehehe, okay okay!!

Nevertheless, you said "benefits of preventing [global warming] on Earth are greatly overestimated". I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you talking about the benefits of measures trying to prevent global warming, or are you actually talking about the benefits of preventing global warming?

Two absolutely seperate discussions, in my view...

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If you actually read what the authors of this new research say, they suggest 10-30 percent of the temperature rise we have seen might be due to increased radiation from the sun. Note they do not dismiss anthropogenic factors as the major cause of global warming. So are we to breathe a sigh of relief about climate change, because there are factors at play here over which we have no control, or should it make us redouble our efforts to modify those factors i.e co2 emissions where we can do something about it?

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old europe wrote:

Hehehe, okay okay!!

Nevertheless, you said "benefits of preventing [global warming] on Earth are greatly overestimated". I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you talking about the benefits of measures trying to prevent global warming, or are you actually talking about the benefits of preventing global warming?

Two absolutely seperate discussions, in my view...

I, on the other hand, see them as flip sides of the same coin. (Anyway, how could you possibly prevent global warming without taking measures to prevent it?) I have a trademark one-liner on global warming in this community. Walter can confirm I'd been uttering it for years, and it goes like this: "Global warming is a problem, but it's not worth fixing given the cost of fixing it." The supporters of the Kyoto treaty, and of measures to slow down further global warming in general, disagree. In other words, they think the benefits of fixing the problem are greater than I do, or that the costs of preventing or ameliorating it are smaller, or both. That's what I was hinting at in the remark you were responding to. Real global warming on Mars suggest, and your hypothetical global cooling on Venus would confirm, that climate change happens whatever we do, and that it's unlikely to get catastrophically out of whack (if it was likely, it would have happened on some planet some time during the last four billion years already.)

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Thomas wrote:

Walter can confirm I'd been uttering it for years, and it goes like this: "Global warming is a problem, but it's not worth fixing given the cost of fixing it."

Yes, that's true. And not only here but an ABUZZ as well.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Yes, that's true. And not only here but an ABUZZ as well.

Thanks Walter Smile

I admit there is a fair number of cranks on my side who only use the cost/benefit argument as a fallback when their denial of global warming is refuted. Therefore it's important for me to assert that I am not one of those cranks -- I had always been using the cost/benefit argument. I also find it important to assert that there is serious opposition to anti-global-warming-policies, opposition that does not depend on such crank arguments.

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So, there is Global Warming and it will be a problem.

Great. What is the government doing to ameliorate the problem then? I forget. Fixing levees for the low-lying cities?

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Piffka wrote:

So, there is Global Warming and it will be a problem.

Great. What is the government doing to ameliorate the problem then? I forget. Fixing levees for the low-lying cities?

It should be, but it wasn't. It is doing a "heck of a job" instead. That's one reason I am neither a supporter of president Bush, nor of governor Blanco, nor of mayor Nagin. But that is a question distinct from the one we were discussing.

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I'm tempted to agree with Thomas on global warming. I tend to think if its going to happen (as it appears to be happening) then there is very little we can do about it.

What is of far greater and immediate impact is the problem of peak oil. Ironically as oil depletes and co2 emissions drop the earth's climate may stabalise in the long term and avoid going into a run away greenhouse state like Venus. The earth may indeed be a very pleasant place for those few survivors of the oil and resource wars into which we are about to be plunged Smile

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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

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