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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 10:07 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Look, even President Bush is starting to believe that something must be done on the issue of carbon expenditure.

Does it really matter?

The fact of the matter is, we must reduce the use of fossil fuels even if it is just for security reasons. Why should the US be dependent on nations filled with people that hate it?

Even if it doesn't make sense from an ecological point of view, it still makes sense from a national security point of view.

If your energy source comes from inside your own country, you help minimise the ability of other countries to hinder your economy by rising the prices for your fuel.


Then let's be honest about the problem, okay? If fuel reduction is desirable due to high prices, limited supply, the ability of other nations to hold us hostage, then the American people will buy that and they will come through. They always have. But tell them that it is necessary to save the planet when they can read the opposing science quite well just looks like smoke and mirrors to them. If the reduced CO2 emmissions are somehow beneficial then its all to the good.

The problem the envivonmental activists are having, however, is they haven't made their case that human CO2 emissions are having significant, if any, impact on climatological changes. The article I posted in the last day or two illustrates the problem the activists have convincing people who aren't willing to buy into any junk science that comes along.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 10:13 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Look, even President Bush is starting to believe that something must be done on the issue of carbon expenditure.

Does it really matter?

The fact of the matter is, we must reduce the use of fossil fuels even if it is just for security reasons. Why should the US be dependent on nations filled with people that hate it?

Even if it doesn't make sense from an ecological point of view, it still makes sense from a national security point of view.

If your energy source comes from inside your own country, you help minimise the ability of other countries to hinder your economy by rising the prices for your fuel.


Then let's be honest when we push for better gas mileage. Let's don't base it on unproven testimony that many if not most Americans believe to be incomplete or even junk science.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 10:16 am
Wolf writes
Quote:
Look, even President Bush is starting to believe that something must be done on the issue of carbon expenditure.

Does it really matter?

The fact of the matter is, we must reduce the use of fossil fuels even if it is just for security reasons. Why should the US be dependent on nations filled with people that hate it?

Even if it doesn't make sense from an ecological point of view, it still makes sense from a national security point of view.

If your energy source comes from inside your own country, you help minimise the ability of other countries to hinder your economy by rising the prices for your fuel.


Then if the national security point of view is a good reason - and I believe it is - lets attack the problem on that basis using credible data. Too many Americans do not trust leftwing wackos to set policy any more and do not trust their data in claiming human caused global warming when there are so many scientists who do not accept that data. It looks like just more smoke and mirrors deception to do social engineering to them.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 10:28 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

The fact of the matter is, we must reduce the use of fossil fuels even if it is just for security reasons. Why should the US be dependent on nations filled with people that hate it?


Bush once famously said "most of our imports come from abroad" much to the amusement of many. But to what was he referring? Ans. Oil. The US imports nearly 60% of its daily oil needs. Moreover non OPEC oil is near or some say at peak supply. It can only go down from there. So where does the remainder come from?

Saudi Arabia
Iraq
Iran
United Arab Emirates
Kuwait.

Have any of these countries been in the news recently? Is anything beginning to make sense?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 10:45 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Look, even President Bush is starting to believe that something must be done on the issue of carbon expenditure.

Does it really matter?

The fact of the matter is, we must reduce the use of fossil fuels even if it is just for security reasons. Why should the US be dependent on nations filled with people that hate it?

Even if it doesn't make sense from an ecological point of view, it still makes sense from a national security point of view.

If your energy source comes from inside your own country, you help minimise the ability of other countries to hinder your economy by rising the prices for your fuel.


So then don't try to use inexact and speculative science to persuade people who are capable of looking at evidence from both sides of the issue? If the issue is national security and neutralizing the ability of other countries to hold us hostage, bill the problem that way and the American people will respond. They always have.

The American people are quite able to look at conflicting data from the scientific community and are not likely to accept some smoke and mirrors policy based on what very well may be faulty or even junk science.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 10:46 am
To Wolf:

So then don't try to use inexact and speculative science to persuade people who are capable of looking at evidence from both sides of the issue? If the issue is national security and neutralizing the ability of other countries to hold us hostage, bill the problem that way and the American people will respond. They always have.

The American people are quite able to look at conflicting data from the scientific community and are not likely to accept some smoke and mirrors policy based on what very well may be faulty or even junk science.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 10:50 am
My big problem is that everyone is blaming the US for most of the global warming.

When Mt. St Helens erupted,it threw more carbon and other pollutants into the air then man has created in his entire existence.
Are we going to somehow stop natural sources also?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 11:36 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Look, even President Bush is starting to believe that something must be done on the issue of carbon expenditure.

Does it really matter?

The fact of the matter is, we must reduce the use of fossil fuels even if it is just for security reasons. Why should the US be dependent on nations filled with people that hate it?

Even if it doesn't make sense from an ecological point of view, it still makes sense from a national security point of view.

If your energy source comes from inside your own country, you help minimise the ability of other countries to hinder your economy by rising the prices for your fuel.


So let's bill it honestly as a national security issue and intention to remove ourselves as hostages to other countries. The American people generally respond well to that. They do not respond as well to poorly supported or contradicted reports from leftwing groups who may or may not be using good science.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 03:39 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Look, even President Bush is starting to believe that something must be done on the issue of carbon expenditure.

Does it really matter?

The fact of the matter is, we must reduce the use of fossil fuels even if it is just for security reasons. Why should the US be dependent on nations filled with people that hate it?

Even if it doesn't make sense from an ecological point of view, it still makes sense from a national security point of view.

If your energy source comes from inside your own country, you help minimise the ability of other countries to hinder your economy by rising the prices for your fuel.


Then promote it honestly. Appeal to American patriotism that their efforts to cut consumption will let us tell OPEC to shove it all that much sooner, tell them that national security will be improved, give me some financial incentive to conserve fuel, and they'll do it willingly and more. Try to guilt them into compliance with fuzzy and disputed science and appeal to a herd instinct, and most will balk every time.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 03:41 pm
Okay double posting again....sorry about that. Earlier I was getting consistent General error messages and my posts weren't showing up. I try not to be redunant at least in consecutive posts.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 03:44 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Just as a casual observation, why is it that the Kyoto Accord proponents are so willing to accept whatever the US government says in favor of global warmng while condemning or calling the US government corrupt or morally bankrupt or incompetent or some other unattractive adjective on every other front?


Foxy, I could have presented all kinds of sources that say that global warming is happening. I could have posted data from the IPCC. Then I would have been accused of only using non-US sources.

Now I have only used US government sources, and you critizise me for using their data.

Therefore, I have proposition: You decide what sources shall be used! US government sources? Or rather data from international bodies or organizations? Or sources from a specific country other than the US?

And another question: When I quote US government organizations and their results - that global warming is indeed happening - and you critizise me using that data, does that mean that you don't believe them?


I wasn't criticizing your sources. Just commenting on the double standard applied to them. I posted a very good article, I thought, from a British publication giving some very good scientific evidence from British scientists that supported my concerns on this issue. It was ignored by all but one who is already on my side of the issue.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 04:07 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I posted a very good article, I thought, from a British publication giving some very good scientific evidence from British scientists that supported my concerns on this issue. It was ignored by all but one who is already on my side of the issue.


Sir David King, the British Government's chief scientific adviser, has even warned that global warming may be responsible for the devastation reaped by Hurricane Katrina.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 04:35 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I posted a very good article, I thought, from a British publication giving some very good scientific evidence from British scientists that supported my concerns on this issue. It was ignored by all but one who is already on my side of the issue.


Sir David King, the British Government's chief scientific adviser, has even warned that global warming may be responsible for the devastation reaped by Hurricane Katrina.


The other British scientists cited in the article, however, disagree, as well as most American scientists, even most of the ones who think we humans are warming up the planet.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 04:40 pm
According to the British media (published e.g. in The Independent, Times and Guardian at the end of September, if I remember correctly) the chairman of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution, Sir John Lawton, has called climate change deniers in the US "loonies", and says global warming is to blame for the increasingly strong hurricanes being spawned in the Atlantic - to quote another top British scientist.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 04:44 pm
Sir John said that!?

surely far too polite
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2005 12:05 am
Labelling a government bureaucracy a "Royal Commission" does not make it anything other than a bureaucracy; just as putting a medieval title in front of the name of a bureaucrat doesn't make him anything other than a bureaucrat. Of course he defends the interests of his department. That is what such tiresome creatures do.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2005 01:42 am
Hmm, ecological scientistists, whom you don't agree with, are just "tiresme creatures".
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2005 02:05 am
Global Warming is real, and more extensive than many realize.

Quote:
Mars Is Warming, NASA Scientists Report

... The planet Mars is undergoing significant global warming, new data from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) show ...


New news? No, not at all; read this 2003 Space-dot-Com article: Mars Emerging from Ice Age

and this 2001 NASA article: Evidence for Recent Climate Change on Mars.

Global Warming is even more widespread than that, as shown by this 2002 MIT article: Pluto is undergoing global warming

And this, a 1998 article from NASA's HubbleSite: Neptune's Largest Moon Is Warming Up

Yup, no doubt about it, Global Warming is all around us. We gotta do something about it. Real soon.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2005 02:57 am
I'm glad, I don't live on those planets!
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2005 03:35 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Labelling a government bureaucracy a "Royal Commission" does not make it anything other than a bureaucracy; just as putting a medieval title in front of the name of a bureaucrat doesn't make him anything other than a bureaucrat. Of course he defends the interests of his department. That is what such tiresome creatures do.


Awarding him a knighthood doesnt diminish his academic qualifications either

"Professor John Lawton made his academic career as an ecologist. He is currently chief executive of the Natural Environment Research Council where he has been since 1999. He was awarded the first President's Gold Medal of the British Ecological Society in 1987 and the Japan Prize for Science and Technology for Conservation of Biodiversity in 2004. He served as an advisor to the RCEP from 1986 to 1989 and was a member from 1990 to 1996."
0 Replies
 
 

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