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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 04:45 pm
Psscht: Canada - but they are nearly as good for bashing.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 04:47 pm
ah oui

should have spotted the fleur de lys
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 04:50 pm
fleur de lys - isn't that a parfum?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 05:02 pm
He's probably a crypto Westphalian.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 06:41 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Ok Ican if you want to argue semantics

here's the first link that came up when I typed global warming anthropogenic and consensus into Google.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming

looking forward to your refutation of that one. Why on earth cant you just accept the science? I'm not playing politics.


FANTASTIC! I FINALLY HAVE A CHANCE TO DEBATE ACTUAL EVIDENCE AS WELL AS OPINION!

From the first article quoted below, it does indeed seem that the IPCC consensus is that human activity is a significant cause of global warming. However, the second article quoted below seems to indicate considerable uncertainty about the relative effects of various alleged causes of global warming. I'll study both articles more tomorrow.

This is the article I obtained from your link [the bolface is added by me]:

Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search

Global mean surface temperatures 1856 to 2004
Mean temperature anomalies during the period 1995 to 2004 with respect to the average temperatures from 1940 to 1980Global warming describes an increase in the average temperature of the Earth's atmosphere and oceans. The terms global warming or anthropogenic global warming are also used to describe the theory that increasing temperatures are the result of a strengthening greenhouse effect caused primarily by man-made increases in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

The scientific opinion on climate change, as expressed by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and explicitly endorsed by the national science academies of the G8 nations, is that the average global temperature has risen 0.6 ± 0.2 °C since the late 19th century, and that "most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities", most prominently the emission of greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide (CO2) and methane (CH4). A small minority of qualified scientists contest the view that humanity's actions have played a significant role in increasing recent temperatures. Uncertainties do exist regarding how much climate change should be expected in the future, and a hotly contested political and public debate exists over what actions, if any, should be taken in light of global warming.

Based on the climate models referenced by the IPCC, temperatures may increase by 1.4 to 5.8 °C between 1990 and 2100 [1]. This is expected to result in other climate changes including rises in sea level and changes in the amount and pattern of precipitation. Such changes may increase extreme weather events such as floods, droughts, heat waves, and hurricanes, change agricultural yields, or contribute to biological extinctions. Although warming is expected to affect the frequency and magnitude of these events, it is very difficult to connect any particular event to global warming.


This was obtained from your same source[boldface and underlines added by me]:
Quote:
Causes of global warming
Main articles: attribution of recent climate change, scientific opinion on climate change

The climate system varies both through natural, "internal" processes as well as in response to variations in external "forcing" from both human and non-human causes, including changes in the Earth's orbit around the Sun (Milankovitch cycles), solar activity, and volcanic emissions as well as greenhouse gases. See Climate change for further discussion of these forcing processes. Climatologists accept that the earth has warmed recently. Somewhat more controversial is what may have caused this change. See attribution of recent climate change for further discussion.


Carbon dioxide during the last 400,000 years and the rapid rise since the Industrial RevolutionAtmospheric scientists know that adding carbon dioxide (CO2) or methane (CH4) to an atmosphere, with no other changes, will tend to make a planet's surface warmer. Indeed, greenhouse gases create a natural greenhouse effect without which temperatures on Earth would be 30°C lower, and the Earth uninhabitable. It is therefore not correct to say that there is a debate between those who "believe in" and "oppose" the theory that adding CO2 or CH4 to the Earth's atmosphere will result in warmer surface temperatures on Earth, on average. Rather, the debate is about what the net effect of the addition of CO2 and CH4 will be, and whether changes in water vapor, clouds, the biosphere and various other climate factors will cancel out its warming effect. The observed warming of the Earth over the past 50 years appears to be at odds with the skeptics' theory that climate feedbacks will cancel out the warming.

[edit]
Greenhouse gas emissions

Greenhouse gas trendsCoal-burning power plants, automobile exhausts, factory smokestacks, and other waste vents of the human environment contribute about 22 billion tons of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases into the earth's atmosphere each year. Animal agriculture, manure, natural gas, rice paddies, landfills, coal, and other sources contribute about 250 million tons of methane each year. About half of human emissions have remained in the atmosphere. The atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4 have increased by 31% and 149% respectively above pre-industrial levels since 1750. This is considerably higher than at any time during the last 420,000 years, the period for which reliable data has been extracted from ice cores. From less direct geological evidence it is believed that CO2 values this high were last attained 40 million years ago. About three-quarters of the anthropogenic emissions of CO2 to the atmosphere during the past 20 years is due to fossil fuel burning. The rest is predominantly due to land-use change, especially deforestation [8].

The longest continuous instrumental measurement of CO2 mixing ratios began in 1958 at Mauna Loa. Since then, the annually averaged value has increased monotonically from 315 ppmv (see the Keeling Curve). The concentration reached 376 ppmv in 2003. South Pole records show similar growth [9]. The monthly measurements display small seasonal oscillations.

[edit]
Alternative theories
[edit]
Solar variation theory

Incoming solar radiation and greenhouse gases (green and blue) during 420,000 years.Main article: Solar variation theory
Various hypotheses have been proposed to attribute terrestrial temperature variations to variations in solar output.


In the IPCC TAR, it was reported that volcanic and solar forcings might account for half of the temperature variations prior to 1950, but that the net effect of such natural forcings was roughly neutral since then [10]. In particular, the change in climate forcing from greenhouse gases since 1750 was estimated to be 8 times larger than the change in forcing due to increasing solar activity over the same period [11].

Work published since the IPCC TAR, has revised the assessment of solar contribution to the post 1950 warming. "The best estimate of the warming from solar forcing is estimated to be 16% or 36% of greenhouse warming depending on the solar reconstruction."."Do Models Underestimate the Solar Contribution to Recent Climate Change" Peter A. Stott, et al, Journal of Climate, 15 DECEMBER 2003

However, a number of studies have suggested that additional solar variation feedbacks may exist which have not been incorporated in the present models or that the relative importance of solar variation may be underestimated [12] [13]. Such claims are disputed (e.g. [14] [15]) but form an active area of current research. The outcome of this debate may play a key role in determining how much climate change is attributed to human vs. natural factors.

[edit]
Other theories
Various other hypotheses have been proposed, including but not limited to:

The warming is within the range of natural variation and needs no particular explanation.
The warming is a consequence of coming out of a prior cool period — the Little Ice Age — and needs no other explanation.
The warming trend itself has not been clearly established, and therefore does not need any explanation.
At present, none of these has more than a small number of supporters within the climate science community.

[edit]
Climate models
Main article: General circulation model
Scientists have studied this issue with computer models of the climate (see below). These models are accepted by the scientific community as being valid only after it has been shown that they do a good job of simulating known climate variations, such as the difference between summer and winter, the North Atlantic Oscillation, or El Niño. All climate models that pass these tests also predict that the net effect of adding greenhouse gases will be a warmer climate in the future. The amount of predicted warming varies by model, however, which probably reflects the way different models depict clouds differently.

As noted above, climate models have been used by the IPCC to anticipate a warming of 1.4°C to 5.8°C between 1990 and 2100 [16]. They have also been used to help determine the causes of recent climate change by comparing the observed changes to those that the models predict from various natural and human derived forcing factors.

The most recent climate models can produce a good match to observations of global temperature changes over the last century. These models do not unambiguously attribute the warming that occurred from approximately 1910 to 1945 to either natural variation or human effects; however, they suggest that the warming since 1975 is dominated by man-made greenhouse gas emissions. Adding simulation of the ability of the environment to sink carbon dioxide suggested that rising fossil fuel emissions would decrease absorption from the atmosphere, amplifying climate warming beyond previous predictions, although "Globally, the amplification is small at the end of the 21st century in this model because of its low transient climate response and the near-cancellation between large regional changes in the hydrologic and ecosystem responses" [17].

Another suggested mechanism whereby a warming trend may be amplified involves the thawing of tundra, which can release the potent greenhouse gas, methane, that is trapped in large quantities in permafrost and ice clathrates [18].

Uncertainties in the representation of clouds are a dominant source of uncertainty in existing models, despite clear progress in modeling of clouds [19]. There is also an ongoing discussion as to whether climate models are neglecting important indirect and feedback effects of solar variability. Further, all such models are limited by available computational power, so that they may overlook changes related to small scale processes and weather (e.g. storm systems, hurricanes). However, despite these and other limitations, the IPCC considers climate models "to be suitable tools to provide useful projections of future climates" [20].

[edit]
Issues
[edit]
The relation between global warming and ozone depletion
Main article: Ozone depletion
Although they are often interlinked in the popular press, the connection between global warming and ozone depletion is not strong. There are four areas of linkage:

Global warming from CO2 radiative forcing is expected (perhaps somewhat surprisingly) to cool the stratosphere. This, in turn, would lead to a relative increase in ozone depletion and the frequency of ozone holes.
Conversely, ozone depletion represents a radiative forcing of the climate system. There are two opposed effects: reduced ozone allows more solar radiation to penetrate, thus warming the troposphere. But a colder stratosphere emits less long-wave radiation, tending to cool the troposphere. Overall, the cooling dominates: the IPCC concludes that observed stratospheric O3 losses over the past two decades have caused a negative forcing of the surface-troposphere system [21] of about –0.15 ± 0.10 W m–2 [22].
One of the strongest predictions of the GW theory is that the stratosphere should cool. However, although this is observed, it is difficult to use it for attribution (for example, warming induced by increased solar radiation would not have this upper cooling effect) because similar cooling is caused by ozone depletion.
Ozone depleting chemicals are also greenhouse gases, representing 0.34 ± 0.03 W/m2, or about 14% of the total radiative forcing from well-mixed GHG's [23].
[edit]
The relation between global warming and global dimming
Main article: Global dimming
Some scientists now consider that the effects of the recently recognized phenomenon of global dimming (the reduction in sunlight reaching the surface of the planet, possibly due to aerosols) may have masked some of the effect of global warming. If this is so, the indirect aerosol effect is stronger than previously believed, which would imply that the climate sensitivity to greenhouse gases is also stronger. Concerns about the effect of aerosol on the global climate were first researched as part of concerns over global cooling in the 1970s.

[edit]
Pre-human global warming
It is thought by some geologists that the Earth experienced global warming in the early Jurassic period, with average temperatures rising by 5 °C (9 °F). Research by the Open University published in Geology (32: 157–160, 2004 [24]) indicates that this caused the rate of rock weathering to increase by 400%. As a result of this, carbon dioxide levels dropped back to normal over roughly the next 150,000 years.
Sudden release of methane clathrate (a greenhouse gas) has been hypothesized as a cause of past global warming. Two events possibly linked in this way are the Permian-Triassic extinction event and the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum. However, warming at the end of the last ice age is thought to not be due to clathrate release [25].

The greenhouse effect has also been invoked to explain how the Earth made it out of the Snowball Earth period. During this period all silicate rocks were covered by ice, thereby preventing them to combine with atmospheric carbon dioxide. The atmospheric carbon dioxide level gradually increased until it reached about 350 times current levels. At this point temperatures were raised to an average of 50 °C, hot enough to melt the ice. Increased amounts of rainfall would quickly wash the carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere. Thick layers of abiotic carbonate sediment which can be found on top the glacial rocks from this period are believed to be formed by this rapid carbon dioxide removal process.


Using paleoclimate data for the last 500 million years (Veizer et al. 2000, Nature 408, pp. 698-701) concluded that long-term temperature variations are only weakly coupled to CO2 variations. Shaviv and Veizer (2003, [26]) extended this by arguing that the biggest long-term influence on temperature is actually the solar system's motion around the galaxy. Afterwards, they argued that over geologic time a change in CO2 concentrations comparable to doubling preindustrial levels, only results in about 0.75 °C warming rather than the usual 1.5-4.5 °C reported by climate models [27]. In turn Veizer's recent work has been discussed and criticised on RealClimate.org [28].

Leading palaeoclimatologist William Ruddiman has argued (eg Scientific American, March 2005) that human influence on the global climate began around 8000 years ago with the development of agriculture. This prevented CO2 (and later methane) levels falling as rapidly as they would have done otherwise. Ruddiman argues that without this effect, the Earth would be entering, or already have entered, a new ice age. However other work in this area (Nature 2004) argues that the present interglacial is most analogous to the interglacial 400,000 years ago that lasted approximately 28,000 years, in which case there is no need to invoke the spread of agriculture for having delayed the next ice age.

[edit]
Public controversy
Main article: Global warming controversy
Leaving the realm of scientific journals, the debate has spilled out into the public arena. In the United States, some politicians have made the issue a component of their campaigns for high office. Global warming is a more central and sustained issue, however, for the European Union.

[edit]
Effects
Main article: Effects of global warming
The predicted effects of global warming are many and various, both for the environment and for human life. The primary effect of global warming is increasing carbon dioxide and increasing global average temperature. From this flow a variety of secondary effects, including sea level rise, impacts on agriculture, reductions in the ozone layer (see below), increased extreme weather, and the spread of disease. In some cases, the effects may already be being experienced, although it is generally difficult to attribute specific natural phenomena to long-term global warming.

The extent and likelihood of these consequences is a matter of considerable controversy. A summary of possible effects and our current understanding can be found in the report of the IPCC Working Group II [29].

[edit]
Effects on ecosystems
Secondary evidence of global warming — lessened snow cover, rising sea levels, weather changes — provides examples of consequences of global warming that may influence not only human activities but also the ecosystems. Increasing global temperature means that ecosystems may change; some species may be forced out of their habitats (possibly to extinction) because of changing conditions, while others may flourish. Few of the terrestrial ecoregions on Earth could expect to be unaffected.

[edit]
Destabilisation of ocean currents
Main article: Destabilisation of ocean currents

[edit]
Environmental refugees

The termini of the glaciers in the Bhutan-Himalaya. Glacial lakes have been rapidly forming on the surface of the debris-covered glaciers in this region during the last few decades. According to USGS researchers, glaciers in the Himalaya are wasting at alarming and accelerating rates, as indicated by comparisons of satellite and historic data, and as shown by the widespread, rapid growth of lakes on the glacier surfaces. The researchers have found a strong correlation between increasing temperatures and glacier retreat.Even a relatively small rise in sea level would make some densely settled coastal plains uninhabitable and create a significant refugee problem. If the sea level were to rise in excess of 4 metres almost every coastal city in the world would be severely affected, with the potential for major impacts on world-wide trade and economy. Presently, the IPCC predicts sea level rise of less than 1 meter through 2100, but they also warn that global warming during that time may lead to irreversible changes in the Earth's glacial system and ultimately melt enough ice to raise sea level many meters over the next millenia. It is estimated that around 200 million people could be affected by sea level rise, especially in Vietnam, Bangladesh, China, India, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia and Egypt. [30] [31] [32]

[edit]
Spread of disease
It has been claimed that global warming will probably extend the favourable zones for vectors conveying infectious diseases such as malaria. An example of this may be the recent extension to the north Mediterranean region of bluetongue disease in domesticated ruminants associated with mite bites. Another is the increase of hantavirus infection, Crimean-Congo hemorrhagic fever, tularemia and rabies in wide areas of Russia during 2004–2005 associated with a population explosion of rodents and their predators. Some of this, however is blamed on breakdowns in governmental vaccination and rodent control programs.[33] Similarly, despite the disappearance of malaria in most temperate regions, the indigenous mosquitoes that transmitted it were never eliminated and remain common in some areas. Thus, although temperature is important in the transmission dynamics of malaria, many other factors are influential [34].

[edit]
Financial effects
Financial institutions, including the world's two largest insurance companies, Munich Re and Swiss Re, warn in a joint study (summary) that "the increasing frequency of severe climatic events, coupled with social trends" could cost almost 150 billion US dollars each year in the next decade. These costs would, through increased costs related to insurance and disaster relief, burden customers, tax payers, and industry alike.

[edit]
Possible positive effects

The NOAA projects that by the 2050s, there will only be 54% of the volume of sea ice there was in the 1950s.Global warming may also have positive effects. Plants form the basis of the biosphere. They utilize the sun's energy to convert water, nutrients, and CO2 into usable biomass. Plant growth can be limited by a number of factors, including soil fertility, water, temperature, and CO2 concentration. Thus, an increase in temperature and atmospheric CO2 can stimulate plant growth in places where these are the limiting factors. Satellite data shows that the productivity of the northern hemisphere has indeed increased since 1982. On the other hand, an increase in the total amount of biomass produced is not necessarily all good, since biodiversity can still decrease even though a smaller number of species are flourishing. Similarly, from the human economic viewpoint, an increase in total biomass but a decrease in crop harvests would be a net disadvantage. Moreover, IPCC models predict that higher CO2 concentrations would only spur growth of flora up to a point, because in many regions the limiting factors are water or nutrients, not temperature or CO2.

Melting Arctic ice may open the Northwest Passage in summer, which would cut 5,000 nautical miles from shipping routes between Europe and Asia. This would be of particular relevance for supertankers which are too big to fit through the Panama Canal and currently have to go around the tip of South America. According the Canadian Ice Service, the amount of ice in Canada's eastern Arctic Archipelago decreased by 15 percent between 1969 and 2004 [35].

[edit]
Mitigating and adapting to global warming
Main article: Mitigation of global warming
"Mitigation of global warming" covers all actions aimed at reducing the extent or likelihood of global warming. The world's primary international agreement on combating climate change is the Kyoto Protocol. Various other strategies include development of new technologies, nuclear power, renewable energy, biodiesel, electric cars (and hybrids), and fuel cells, Energy conservation, carbon taxes and carbon sequestration schemes.

Adaptation stategies accept some warming as a given and focus on preventing or reducing undesirable consequences: for example defending against rising sea levels or ensuring food security.

...
0 Replies
 
Louise R Heller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 06:47 pm
Hello?

Sure the planet has been warming up during the last ten thousand years since the last glaciation, so what?

Glaciations have come and gone many times, what's the panic now!
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Oct, 2005 07:06 pm
Well, for one thing, Louise, we live here.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 01:28 am
Quote:
Climate change: 10 ways to save the world

Today, Tony Blair will address energy ministers from around the world on tackling climate change. But he is failing to meet his own targets, with British carbon emissions on the rise again. There are, though, measures he could adopt...


Published: 01 November 2005

1: SET LEGALLY BINDING ANNUAL CO2 REDUCTION TARGETS

New law to commit the Government to reducing CO2 every year by a fixed amount - say, 3 per cent - audited by an independent body. A radical programme would then have to be implemented to meet the target.

2: DECENTRALISE THE ENERGY SUPPLY SYSTEM

Do away with the vast power stations serving the national grid: think microgeneration. Give every city, every town, every village, its own power station, fitted with a combined heat and power (CHP) system, which cuts CO2

3: ALL NEW BUILDINGS TO BE CO2-FREE

Put a power station in every basement: change building regulations to make all new buildings provide their own power, with solar panels, mini-wind turbines and CHP systems to soak up wasted heat.

4: INSIST ON USE OF ENERGY-EFFICIENT LIGHT BULBS

Ban standard light bulbs all over Britain and force us to use energy-saving bulbs instead, which soak up less than a quarter of the electricity. Hugely symbolic gesture which would save enormous quantities of CO2.

5: BOOST NEGLECTED RENEWABLES; SOLAR, WAVE, TIDE POWER

Start giving proper funding and backing to renewable energy other than wind: solar power, and power from the waves and tides. These have vast potential to supply CO2-free electricity, yet are underdeveloped.

6: FOCUS AGAIN ON OFFSHORE WIND POWER

Renew the impetus behind wind farms based in the sea with £1bn of subsidy: after a good start, development is slowing, because of technical and financial difficulties, yet we have unparalleled offshore wind resources.

7: GET RADICAL WITH ENERGY EFFICIENCY

Make sure every house in Britain that can be properly insulated is insulated; bring in much more rigorous labelling that can enable any consumer to see how much energy is used by a product.

8: TACKLE THE GAS GUZZLERS

Raise vehicle excise duty (VED) on cars such as 4x4s; make it more than £1,000 per vehicle and set it to rise further. If you want to be radical, insist on a health warning on the side: This Vehicle Damages The Environment.

9: CURB THE GROWTH IN CHEAP FLIGHTS

Raise air passenger duty to end the cheap flight bonanza, as CO2 emissions from aircraft are the most rapidly rising in Britain and also the most damaging: they go straight into the stratosphere. A vote loser and a tough choice.

10: HAVE A LATE-NIGHT TALK WITH GEORGE BUSH

Do anything you can to get George Bush to change his mind about climate change. The world needs America, the biggest CO2 emitter, to lead the fight against global warming. The President is denying the evidence.

1: SET LEGALLY BINDING ANNUAL CO2 REDUCTION TARGETS

New law to commit the Government to reducing CO2 every year by a fixed amount - say, 3 per cent - audited by an independent body. A radical programme would then have to be implemented to meet the target.

2: DECENTRALISE THE ENERGY SUPPLY SYSTEM

Do away with the vast power stations serving the national grid: think microgeneration. Give every city, every town, every village, its own power station, fitted with a combined heat and power (CHP) system, which cuts CO2

3: ALL NEW BUILDINGS TO BE CO2-FREE

Put a power station in every basement: change building regulations to make all new buildings provide their own power, with solar panels, mini-wind turbines and CHP systems to soak up wasted heat.

4: INSIST ON USE OF ENERGY-EFFICIENT LIGHT BULBS

Ban standard light bulbs all over Britain and force us to use energy-saving bulbs instead, which soak up less than a quarter of the electricity. Hugely symbolic gesture which would save enormous quantities of CO2.

5: BOOST NEGLECTED RENEWABLES; SOLAR, WAVE, TIDE POWER

Start giving proper funding and backing to renewable energy other than wind: solar power, and power from the waves and tides. These have vast potential to supply CO2-free electricity, yet are underdeveloped.
6: FOCUS AGAIN ON OFFSHORE WIND POWER

Renew the impetus behind wind farms based in the sea with £1bn of subsidy: after a good start, development is slowing, because of technical and financial difficulties, yet we have unparalleled offshore wind resources.

7: GET RADICAL WITH ENERGY EFFICIENCY

Make sure every house in Britain that can be properly insulated is insulated; bring in much more rigorous labelling that can enable any consumer to see how much energy is used by a product.

8: TACKLE THE GAS GUZZLERS

Raise vehicle excise duty (VED) on cars such as 4x4s; make it more than £1,000 per vehicle and set it to rise further. If you want to be radical, insist on a health warning on the side: This Vehicle Damages The Environment.

9: CURB THE GROWTH IN CHEAP FLIGHTS

Raise air passenger duty to end the cheap flight bonanza, as CO2 emissions from aircraft are the most rapidly rising in Britain and also the most damaging: they go straight into the stratosphere. A vote loser and a tough choice.

10: HAVE A LATE-NIGHT TALK WITH GEORGE BUSH

Do anything you can to get George Bush to change his mind about climate change. The world needs America, the biggest CO2 emitter, to lead the fight against global warming. The President is denying the evidence.
Source
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 01:39 am
Here's some quite unrelated stuff about the Mississippi Delta

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4393852.stm
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 04:57 am
Ican you post the entire encyclopeadia as if its in refutation of my argument, whereas I agree with it all. I'm no climatologist. I can only go with expert advice. I am in no position to challenge the consensus (and prestigious) scientific opinion. Yes there are people who point to increased insolation. And there are vested interests pulling one way or another. But interestingly not big oil. My newspaper is full of ads from British Petroleum now styling itself beyond petroleum, or Shell showing their wind farm investments or Total....all pointing in a very clear direction.

The world is facing a very serious problem. Somehow we have to make it through the next 20-30 years transition period towards sustainable low carbon emission economies. Not just because we have to do something about curbing excessive climate change, but because oil itself is depleting. Its just not going to be there in the amount we would like.

I've said this before but there is a remarkable symmetry about the problems facing the world. Long term climate change. Short term terrorism and war. And linking the two and giving context to both is man's addiction to fossil fuels.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 11:17 am
If Walter's post is truly a reflection of Blair's proposal; then I am very disappointed in the British PM's politics and even his (or his advisors) understanding of basic engineering.

Most of these proposals involve coercive action by government that will curtail the freedom, inventiveness and free initiative of people everywhere. I would never wish to live in a country that gave its government such broad, intrusive and coercive powers. It appears that some in Europe have learned little from the awful history of the 20th century.

The article does not describe the technology to be used in "the power station in the basement of every building", however the concept smacks of Mao's ill-conceived initiative for steel production in mini furnaces in every village. The laws of thermodynamics and basic engineering principles very strongly favor large central stations for the production of electrical power. Perhaps Blair is proposing that Britain dismantle its electrical power distribution grid and rely instead on purely local production, thus avoiding the line losses in the network. If so this is an ill-conceived notion that utterly ignores the manifold inefficiencies in small scale production and the savings potential of instantly meeting varying local demand from central sources operating at near steady-state power levels. Engineering by political "scientists" is generally as bad or worse than the "political science" they so assiduously claim to master.

Bureaucratic regulation of the details of building design everywhere will stifle initiative, creativity and basic economic activity. I can imagine the Soviet proposals for widespread production of a single design automobile. (the Lada, based on the FIAT 124- actually a good car.) It was produced for over 20 years with no design changes or improvements. When the Soviet empire collapsed, there was no market for it anywhere.

These proposals truly promise the start of a new dark age in any country or region foolish enough to embrace them. Where is Hans Christian Anderson when we need him so badly? This emperor is truly naked.

Criticism of George Bush for his supposed lack of intelligence has become a tiresome cliché among his political opponents, particularly in Europe. If this is an example of their alternatives, then my distain for the flaccid frightened, and (beneath the social democrat veneer) despotic character of the European political establishment will increase beyond its already rather high level. By comparison George Bush is a model of rationality and stoic persistence and determination.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 11:34 am
Don't misunderestimate Mr Blair. :wink:

France actually, in comparison with Britain, is a good example of state control getting worthwhile projects done.

And, they give state aid and cooperation to manufacturers which enables viable automotive and aircraft industries, to name but two; unlike the UK
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 11:54 am
georgeob1 wrote:
The article does not describe the technology to be used in "the power station in the basement of every building", however the concept smacks of Mao's ill-conceived initiative for steel production in mini furnaces in every village. The laws of thermodynamics and basic engineering principles very strongly favor large central stations for the production of electrical power.


Such is done already here in the mountain region of the Sauerland, where they use wooden 'pellets', a region, btw, with 70+% conservative voters.
People like it. (Out town's water, gas and electrity supplier plans two small ones as well.)


Obviously enineers in Europe have some different ideas - but we don't have the experiences of continious and numerous electrity blackouts, I must admit.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 12:51 pm
I wouldn't call France's government-controlled aviation or automobile industry a particular success by any economic standard. I agree that the French have been relatively successful in avoiding many of the adverse effects of government involvement in economic activity, however the basic contradictions remain. We shall see if France is able to sustain needed economic growth in the high taxation, high labor market regulation regime it has created.

The U.S. has had three or four widespread blackouts, all in the mid Atlantic region during the past forty years. All were corrected within a day or so. That is hardly the "continuous and numerous" blackouts to which Walter so snidely referred. These blackouts do indeed indicate a continuing underlying problem. That is the lack of redundancy in both the power generating and distribution systems in that region of our country. Chiefly this is a result of ill-advised government regulation that in its effect punishes capital investment in these systems. Perhaps a solution is even more government involvement - perhaps giving it a monopoly on power generation and distribution. I believe that would make the problem worse - higher costs and less reliability.

I will admit that European rail transit systems are generally far superior to ours (except for a few urban systems). They are, perhaps a singular example of sustained excellent performance by government controlled monopolies. I don't know enough about the funding of these systems to assess their cost relative to alternatives, however their operation is quite impressive as a whole.

None of this however touches the fundamental folly of Blair's proposals.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 01:00 pm
georgeob1 wrote:

The U.S. has had three or four widespread blackouts, all in the mid Atlantic region during the past forty years. All were corrected within a day or so. That is hardly the "continuous and numerous" blackouts to which Walter so snidely referred.


Ididn't research but only repeated what has been posted here by other members.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 01:10 pm
But I just learnt that since 1998 blackouts statistics aren't reported anymore "so system reliability could no longer be accurately assessed" - that's from the 'American Institue of Physics' (quoting Ben Carreras of Oak Ridge National Laboratory).
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 01:33 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
But I just learnt that since 1998 blackouts statistics aren't reported anymore "so system reliability could no longer be accurately assessed" - that's from the 'American Institue of Physics' (quoting Ben Carreras of Oak Ridge National Laboratory).


Are there any comparable statistics available for other countries? Ben Carreras is a functionary of the Department of Energy - a particularly inept bureaucracy with which I have a great deal of experience (I once directed a major part of the operations at the Hanford Washington site and the whole operation at the Rocky Flats Colorado site.). Of course he wants more data - it is grist for his mill. That doesn't at all imply that there is a problem that requires his services for its resolution.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 01:52 pm
Not sure about the statistics (and it really was just a minor point).
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 03:15 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Ican you post the entire encyclopeadia as if its in refutation of my argument, whereas I agree with it all. I'm no climatologist. I can only go with expert advice. I am in no position to challenge the consensus (and prestigious) scientific opinion. Yes there are people who point to increased insolation. And there are vested interests pulling one way or another. But interestingly not big oil. My newspaper is full of ads from British Petroleum now styling itself beyond petroleum, or Shell showing their wind farm investments or Total....all pointing in a very clear direction.


QUESTIONS BY AN OBSERVING ENGINEER

Are the findings of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) valid?

Are the findings of UN's "an international group of science academies from the G8 countries and Brazil, China and India" valid?

What percentage of the membership of the UN's IPCC are climatologists?

What percentage of the membership of UN's "an international group of science academies from the G8 countries and Brazil, China and India" are climatologists?

Is it the consensus of climatologists that Earth warming is primarily caused by increases of CO2 and CH4 in the atmosphere?

ON THE ONE HAND WE HAVE THESE EXCERPTS (boldfaces and underlines added):

Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Overview

In common usage, the term "global warming" generally implies a human influence; the more neutral term climate change is usually used for a change in climate with no presumption as to cause and no characterization of the kind of change involved, such as the Ice Ages. Note, however, that there are important exceptions to this: the UNFCCC uses "climate change" for human caused change and "climate variability" for non-human caused change. Some organizations use the term "anthropogenic climate change" to indicate the presumption of human influence.

The scientific consensus on global warming is that the Earth is warming, and that humanity's greenhouse gas emissions are making a significant contribution. This consensus is summarized by the findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). In the Third Assessment Report, the IPCC concluded that "most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities". This position was recently supported by an international group of science academies from the G8 countries and Brazil, China and India.


ON THE OTHER HAND WE HAVE THESE EXCERPTS (boldfaces and underlines added):

Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Causes of global warming

The climate system varies both through natural, "internal" processes as well as in response to variations in external "forcing" from both human and non-human causes, including changes in the Earth's orbit around the Sun (Milankovitch cycles), solar activity, and volcanic emissions as well as greenhouse gases. See Climate change for further discussion of these forcing processes. Climatologists accept that the earth has warmed recently. Somewhat more controversial is what may have caused this change.

Carbon dioxide during the last 400,000 years and the rapid rise since the Industrial RevolutionAtmospheric scientists know that adding carbon dioxide (CO2) or methane (CH4) to an atmosphere, with no other changes, will tend to make a planet's surface warmer. Indeed, greenhouse gases create a natural greenhouse effect without which temperatures on Earth would be 30°C lower, and the Earth uninhabitable. It is therefore not correct to say that there is a debate between those who "believe in" and "oppose" the theory that adding CO2 or CH4 to the Earth's atmosphere will result in warmer surface temperatures on Earth, on average. Rather, the debate is about what the net effect of the addition of CO2 and CH4 will be, and whether changes in water vapor, clouds, the biosphere and various other climate factors will cancel out its warming effect. The observed warming of the Earth over the past 50 years appears to be at odds with the skeptics' theory that climate feedbacks will cancel out the warming.

Alternative theories

Various hypotheses have been proposed to attribute terrestrial temperature variations to variations in solar output.

In the IPCC TAR, it was reported that volcanic and solar forcings might account for half of the temperature variations prior to 1950, but that the net effect of such natural forcings was roughly neutral since then. In particular, the change in climate forcing from greenhouse gases since 1750 was estimated to be 8 times larger than the change in forcing due to increasing solar activity over the same period.

Work published since the IPCC TAR, has revised the assessment of solar contribution to the post 1950 warming. "The best estimate of the warming from solar forcing is estimated to be 16% or 36% of greenhouse warming depending on the solar reconstruction. "Do Models Underestimate the Solar Contribution to Recent Climate Change"

However, a number of studies have suggested that additional solar variation feedbacks may exist which have not been incorporated in the present models or that the relative importance of solar variation may be underestimated. Such claims are disputed but form an active area of current research. The outcome of this debate may play a key role in determining how much climate change is attributed to human vs. natural factors.

Other theories

The warming is within the range of natural variation and needs no particular explanation.

The warming is a consequence of coming out of a prior cool period; the Little Ice Age; and needs no other explanation.

Climate models

Uncertainties in the representation of clouds are a dominant source of uncertainty in existing models, despite clear progress in modeling of clouds. There is also an ongoing discussion as to whether climate models are neglecting important indirect and feedback effects of solar variability. Further, all such models are limited by available computational power, so that they may overlook changes related to small scale processes and weather (e.g. storm systems, hurricanes).

Pre-human global warming

It is thought by some geologists that the Earth experienced global warming in the early Jurassic period, with average temperatures rising by 5 °C (9 °F). ... that this caused the rate of rock weathering to increase by 400%. As a result of this, carbon dioxide levels dropped back to normal over roughly the next 150,000 years.

The greenhouse effect has also been invoked to explain how the Earth made it out of the Snowball Earth period. During this period all silicate rocks were covered by ice, thereby preventing them to combine with atmospheric carbon dioxide. The atmospheric carbon dioxide level gradually increased until it reached about 350 times current levels. At this point temperatures were raised to an average of 50 °C, hot enough to melt the ice. Increased amounts of rainfall would quickly wash the carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere. Thick layers of abiotic carbonate sediment which can be found on top the glacial rocks from this period are believed to be formed by this rapid carbon dioxide removal process.

Leading palaeoclimatologist William Ruddiman has argued that human influence on the global climate began around 8000 years ago with the development of agriculture. This prevented CO2 (and later methane) levels falling as rapidly as they would have done otherwise. Ruddiman argues that without this effect, the Earth would be entering, or already have entered, a new ice age. However other work in this area argues that the present interglacial is most analogous to the interglacial 400,000 years ago that lasted approximately 28,000 years, in which case there is no need to invoke the spread of agriculture for having delayed the next ice age.


Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
The world is facing a very serious problem. Somehow we have to make it through the next 20-30 years transition period towards sustainable low carbon emission economies. Not just because we have to do something about curbing excessive climate change, but because oil itself is depleting. Its just not going to be there in the amount we would like.

I've said this before but there is a remarkable symmetry about the problems facing the world. Long term climate change. Short term terrorism and war. And linking the two and giving context to both is man's addiction to fossil fuels.


PETROLEUM IS NOT DEPLETING

Currently, undeveloped petroleum reserves are enormous. It is oil production from those undeveloped reserves that is not keeping up with demand. Obvious solution: develop more of the thus far undeveloped petroleum reserves.

REAL CAUSES OF REAL EFFECTS

Am I interpreting you correctly? I think you are alleging that there is a correlation of some kind among: long term climate change, short term terrorism and war, and man's use of fossil fuels.

If I am interpreting you correctly, please describe what kind of correlation you hypothesize. If I am not interpreting you correctly, please explain how I should be interpreting you.

As I see it, terrorism is a product of the spread of the al Qaeda religion. The spread of the al Qaeda religion is a product of a large number of middle eastern people adopting the al Qaeda religion because they prefer to blame others for their own condition rather than blame themselves for their own failures and rectifying their failures to improve their own condition. That in turn is strongly influenced by middle eastern totalitarians seeking to gain or retain power over these same people by encouraging them to blame others for their own condition.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Nov, 2005 03:41 pm
ican711nm wrote:
What percentage of the membership of the UN's IPCC are climatologists?

What percentage of the membership of UN's "an international group of science academies from the G8 countries and Brazil, China and India" are climatologists?


100% - if their profession is reported correctly and they didn't cheat with their academic degrees/positions.
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