76
   

Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 01:46 pm
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 01:47 pm
okie wrote:
but out of curiosity, could you be the formerly known "BernardR" that happened in these parts a while back?


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 01:49 pm
okie, you're as wrong as wrong can be: High Seas is known by quite a few personally and lots of others since her ABUZZ days.

(Besides that, there are more and larger differences to BernhardR.)
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 02:17 pm
Well, my sincere apologies, to everyone, and to High Seas. Glad to provide some humor anyway, I guess I am in the dark. High Seas appears here as a Newbie, so I am always on the lookout for my old friend and unflappable supporter on this thread, BernardR.

I will not speculate on the "more and larger differences" you mention, Walter.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 02:36 pm
I was hoping for the typical liberal third degree of this new poster, but apparently they only do that to those that oppose their views.

That's why I laughed...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 02:38 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I was hoping for the typical liberal third degree of this new poster, but apparently they only do that to those that oppose their views.


a) I've only very rarely been the same opinion as High Seas,
b) besides georgeob, she's the only conservative I highly regard.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 03:22 pm
Well gee, McG and Okie. Shall we take turns at being president of the 'rest of the conservatives Walter doesn't hold in high regard' club? We're in pretty good company I'd say. Smile
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 03:23 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I was hoping for the typical liberal third degree of this new poster, but apparently they only do that to those that oppose their views.


a) I've only very rarely been the same opinion as High Seas,
b) besides georgeob, she's the only conservative I highly regard.


Thank you for the kind words, Walter!

Okie - no need to apologize, I don't think I know anyone here except Walter so far on this thread; never heard of BernardR, but didn't go back to read 400 pages either. Nor do I see how the past average temperatures for the planet could be a function of political views!

Temperatures for the past billion+ years are shown on the graph I already posted and it's obvious we're at the coldest phase of the range, with renewed warming having only recently started again.

Next: planetary motions, in addition to those involving the entire solar system, are principally 3: orbital eccentricity (between 0.00 and 0.06 every 100,000 years), tilt in the axis of rotation (betw. 22 and 24.5 degrees every 41,000 years), and a wobble of the spin axis every 23,000 years.

How a poster could confuse any of those planetary motions with motions of the lithosphere isn't clear to me, but even looking only at events on the planet's surface we find the correlation of high temperatures with high sea levels to be almost perfect. We're at a historically low sea level period (with so much water locked up in polar ice) which is of course also a historically very cold period, as shown on the previous graph. QED Smile

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/cliscibeyond.html

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/images/figure06_08.jpg
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 03:31 pm
High Seas wrote:

Temperatures for the past billion+ years are shown on the graph I already posted and it's obvious we're at the coldest phase of the range, with renewed warming having only recently started again.


Laughing really, you can detect a recent upward trend when the x axis is a billion + years? You must have exeedingly good eyesight.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 03:41 pm
LOL Steve! The data ranges for the graphs are available for download, as you perfectly well know, we don't go by the pretty pictures!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 03:48 pm
What that graph doesn't show is how high or low the seas have been during that time period; just relationship.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 03:56 pm
Cicerone - do you want a link to the actual datasets going into those graphs? They're really very large files, but can be downloaded.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 04:35 pm
P.S. to Cicerone: I checked - these are the ice-sheet periods of our planet starting at 4.2 billion years ago:

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/images/part2.gif

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/resourcebeyond.html

A complete disappearance of our polar icecaps will add approximately 80 meters to ocean levels given the current configuration of our lithosphere (i.e. allowing for inland bodies of water) but nobody knows if that's going to happen within 10^2 years or 10^5, or longer still. Hope that was clear.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 05:45 pm
I still want to know how you got the impression that "planetary motions" (whatever you mean by that) cause the temperature swings.

When I asked for a citation you referred me to the website that talks about the movement of tectonic plates. It tells how they figured the temperatures based on the location of the land mass and the fossils and rock formations that occurred during that time. That in no way leads me to conclude they are claiming that "planetary motions" caused those differences in temperature. Nor can I find any reference there where they claim that planetary motions caused the temperature changes.

You then went on to argue that my use of the term "planetary motion" was not your intention and I was misquoting you. But now you proceed to come back with my definition. I will ask again. Provide a citation that shows that planetary motions caused the differences in temperatures over several billion years. Please provide one that states there is no other possible explanation like you appeared to state.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 06:23 pm
High Seas wrote:
Cicerone - do you want a link to the actual datasets going into those graphs? They're really very large files, but can be downloaded.

A link to datasets is always helpful.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 09:14 am
Link to NOAA's paleoceanic small datasets:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ftp-ocean.html

Link to USGS sea level small datasets:
http://geochange.er.usgs.gov/data/sea_level/Core/raw/peltier/

Link to Tim Berners-Lee's www index of all paleoclimatology and paleoceanology resources:
http://www.datasync.com/~farrar/www_vl_paleoclim.html

Finally (also accessible at above link) complete list of large datasets:


Quote:

Data Archives

* Delphi Project. Marine geology paleoclimate data.
* European Pollen Database.
* Greenland Summit Ice Cores (GRIP, GISP2) data online.
* Index to Marine Geological Samples Database.
* International Tree-Ring Data Bank. NOAA and World Data Center-A for Paleoclimatology.
* Oak Ridge National Lab. Carbon Dioxide Information & Analysis Center. Data sets relating to climate and CO2. Also at ftp site, ftp://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/pub/
* Ocean Drilling Program JANUS Web. JOIDES Resolution data.
* Quaternary Reference Collections, Cambridge, UK.
* The Delphi Project. Marine sediment cores.
* World Data Center-A for Paleoclimatology. Many datasets of all sorts.


For anyone interested further in the actual modelling - as opposed to the input of data series - this is a link to an excellent recent article:
http://www.acm.caltech.edu/~hou/papers/Wiener_Chaos_JCP.pdf


Quote:

As it was demonstrated in the previous sections, as long as the time interval is comparatively short, e.g.
T < 1.0, the performance of the WCE is quite satisfactory. However, long time integrations of the WCE
method present a substantial challenge. For long time integrations, one has to solve the equation step-by-step
on successive small time intervals.


I'm currently working on such a model now and my deadline is fast approaching, so will close by wishing a happy new year to all Smile
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 10:03 am
from "the globe and mail - report on business" :

INVESTMENT ADVICE IS BLOWING IN THE WIND
---------------------------------------------------------
Evelyn Browning-Garriss is a weather whisperer who advises everyone from Texas cattle raisers to vineyards and Canadian banks about what the coming season will bring.

Guessing even tomorrow's weather is tricky, but the New Mexico climatologist's long-term forecasts are right on the money, her clients say.

Take last spring, when just about everyone figured another wild hurricane season would propel oil and natural gas prices to records. They bet on it ?- but positions for investors such as Amaranth Advisors LLC went sour after the season turned out to be one of the calmest in a decade.

Not everyone had jumped on the bandwagon. Ms. Browning-Garriss thought volcanic ash from eruptions in Montserrat and Russia would temper the weather. And she said so to clients, the media and in her newsletter.

Its futures trading arm was one of the few to advise clients that energy prices may not blast off last spring and summer. Not everyone listened, but those who did were laughing all the way to the bank.

"I would rank her as being the best that I know of as far as being able to predict long-term weather patterns," said Jeff Kowal, a futures specialist at Scotia Capital Inc.

Ms. Browning-Garriss, author of the Browning Newsletter, was in Toronto this month telling Scotiabank clients how El Nino, volcanic activity and sun spots will influence the weather. Her audience seemed riveted, asking questions about the coming season and how Canada will be affected.

For Scotia Capital, which deals in markets such as natural gas, corn, wheat, soy beans and orange juice, any insights into the weather are useful because of its influence on commodity prices.

Mr. Kowal also likes that Ms. Browning-Garriss isn't backed by any private or public funding.

"It's important to note that she is independent, so she's not being paid by a particular sector or lobby group that has a vested interest," Mr. Kowal said.

Ms. Browning-Garriss, a walking Farmer's Almanac with two decades of experience in the field, grew up hearing weather tales from her father's knee. Famed weather predictor Iben Browning is said to have forecast the timing of the 1989 San Francisco earthquake ?- though he falsely predicted a killer earthquake in southeastern Missouri a year later. He died shortly after.

His daughter, now in her fifties, inherited his fascination with the natural world. She readily admits she's not a scientist by training ?- her degree is in anthropology and history ?- and says most of her focus has been on how weather affects people.

She's far more interested in nature than the politics of climate change, but says that human activity is heating up a planet that's already warming. She looks at natural cycles of the weather, using factors such as solar radiation, ocean currents and volcanic activity to predict patterns in the future.

And she's rather good at it, which is why farmers, power companies and investors go back to her, year after year, for her predictions.

The Texas and Southwestern Cattle Raisers Association has had her speak at past conventions and said it plans to keep using her amid a drought and wild fires in the region.

Ms. Browning-Garriss estimates a third of her clients are farmers, ranchers or investors, who want to know how hurricanes, droughts and floods will affect agricultural commodities. About a third are power and utility companies interested in heating and cooling days. The final third are a diverse bunch ranging from sports retailers who want to know about the ski season, to paint shops, insurers, florists and travel agencies.

She tries to keep travel down to four days a month, but she's ventured as far as Fiji and Belize to advise power producers there.

Staying independent is a key, she says. "My father passed down the advice: Don't get on government contracts and have private clients, because with a private client, if you're wrong, they won't hire you again. You get immediate feedback," she says in a phone interview from Sandia Park, N.M., a region hit with snow storms this month.

The climatologist was correct about last year's season, and also predicted wild hurricanes the year before, just before Katrina hit. But such accuracy isn't new. A full decade ago, the Wall Street Journal named her as one of the year's winners because she was one of the few predicting rains in Texas.

As for the coming season? She'd prefer you subscribe to her $225 (U.S.) newsletter to find out. But she does say the warmth in the Atlantic Ocean means it'll be another wild ride. The opposite of last year, in fact.

She also expects more volatility ?- and warming ?- to come. Droughts will continue to plague California and the southern U.S. states, bringing more wildfires. In the northeast, meantime, heavy rainfall could delay spring planting and prompt farmers to plant soy beans instead of corn. (This call prompted Scotiabank to issue a research note, predicting a rally in corn futures).

In all, "expect a lot of weather records to be broken," she says.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'd be inclined to place my bets with the big investors , they are likely to be a bit more knowledgable than i am , and i need all the help i can get .
perhaps "the farmers' almanac" can produce some useful advice .
hbg

source :
...CLIMATE CHANGE - WHERE SOME INVESTORS ARE GOING TO PLACE THEIR BETS...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 02:35 pm
hamburger wrote:
from "the globe and mail - report on business" :

INVESTMENT ADVICE IS BLOWING IN THE WIND
---------------------------------------------------------
Evelyn Browning-Garriss is a weather whisperer who advises everyone from Texas cattle raisers to vineyards and Canadian banks about what the coming season will bring.

Guessing even tomorrow's weather is tricky, but the New Mexico climatologist's long-term forecasts are right on the money, her clients say.

Take last spring, when just about everyone figured another wild hurricane season would propel oil and natural gas prices to records. They bet on it ?- but positions for investors such as Amaranth Advisors LLC went sour after the season turned out to be one of the calmest in a decade.

Not everyone had jumped on the bandwagon. Ms. Browning-Garriss thought volcanic ash from eruptions in Montserrat and Russia would temper the weather. And she said so to clients, the media and in her newsletter.

Its futures trading arm was one of the few to advise clients that energy prices may not blast off last spring and summer. Not everyone listened, but those who did were laughing all the way to the bank.

"I would rank her as being the best that I know of as far as being able to predict long-term weather patterns," said Jeff Kowal, a futures specialist at Scotia Capital Inc.

Ms. Browning-Garriss, author of the Browning Newsletter, was in Toronto this month telling Scotiabank clients how El Nino, volcanic activity and sun spots will influence the weather. Her audience seemed riveted, asking questions about the coming season and how Canada will be affected.

For Scotia Capital, which deals in markets such as natural gas, corn, wheat, soy beans and orange juice, any insights into the weather are useful because of its influence on commodity prices.

Mr. Kowal also likes that Ms. Browning-Garriss isn't backed by any private or public funding.

"It's important to note that she is independent, so she's not being paid by a particular sector or lobby group that has a vested interest," Mr. Kowal said.

Ms. Browning-Garriss, a walking Farmer's Almanac with two decades of experience in the field, grew up hearing weather tales from her father's knee. Famed weather predictor Iben Browning is said to have forecast the timing of the 1989 San Francisco earthquake ?- though he falsely predicted a killer earthquake in southeastern Missouri a year later. He died shortly after.

His daughter, now in her fifties, inherited his fascination with the natural world. She readily admits she's not a scientist by training ?- her degree is in anthropology and history ?- and says most of her focus has been on how weather affects people.

She's far more interested in nature than the politics of climate change, but says that human activity is heating up a planet that's already warming. She looks at natural cycles of the weather, using factors such as solar radiation, ocean currents and volcanic activity to predict patterns in the future.

And she's rather good at it, which is why farmers, power companies and investors go back to her, year after year, for her predictions.

The Texas and Southwestern Cattle Raisers Association has had her speak at past conventions and said it plans to keep using her amid a drought and wild fires in the region.

Ms. Browning-Garriss estimates a third of her clients are farmers, ranchers or investors, who want to know how hurricanes, droughts and floods will affect agricultural commodities. About a third are power and utility companies interested in heating and cooling days. The final third are a diverse bunch ranging from sports retailers who want to know about the ski season, to paint shops, insurers, florists and travel agencies.

She tries to keep travel down to four days a month, but she's ventured as far as Fiji and Belize to advise power producers there.

Staying independent is a key, she says. "My father passed down the advice: Don't get on government contracts and have private clients, because with a private client, if you're wrong, they won't hire you again. You get immediate feedback," she says in a phone interview from Sandia Park, N.M., a region hit with snow storms this month.

The climatologist was correct about last year's season, and also predicted wild hurricanes the year before, just before Katrina hit. But such accuracy isn't new. A full decade ago, the Wall Street Journal named her as one of the year's winners because she was one of the few predicting rains in Texas.

As for the coming season? She'd prefer you subscribe to her $225 (U.S.) newsletter to find out. But she does say the warmth in the Atlantic Ocean means it'll be another wild ride. The opposite of last year, in fact.

She also expects more volatility ?- and warming ?- to come. Droughts will continue to plague California and the southern U.S. states, bringing more wildfires. In the northeast, meantime, heavy rainfall could delay spring planting and prompt farmers to plant soy beans instead of corn. (This call prompted Scotiabank to issue a research note, predicting a rally in corn futures).

In all, "expect a lot of weather records to be broken," she says.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'd be inclined to place my bets with the big investors , they are likely to be a bit more knowledgable than i am , and i need all the help i can get .
perhaps "the farmers' almanac" can produce some useful advice .
hbg

source :
...CLIMATE CHANGE - WHERE SOME INVESTORS ARE GOING TO PLACE THEIR BETS...


Evelyn Browning-Garriss lived a couple of miles from our home in Cedar Crest when we lived in the East Mountain area just on the other side of Sandia Crest that forms the eastern boundary of a big chunk of Albuquerque. I do not know Ms. Browning-Garriss personally but I do know she is of the opinion that the local climate is very much affected by human activity and all their paved roads, parkinglots, and construction. She leans toward the theory that human activity can affect global climate but is unwilling to speculate how much or how little.

If you want a good summary of her take on all this, go to her newsletter: HERE
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 03:29 pm
For environmentalists, you should be concerned about the amount of lumber China is using in their economic growth.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 06:14 pm
foxfire :
thanks for the link to the newsletter !
hbg
0 Replies
 
 

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