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Sun 23 Jan, 2005 08:27 pm
Hey gang, you guys were very helpful with the last thread and we've made a lot of progress in our relationship. My wife is loving again, and emotionally available.
With all relationships come change, and we're going through another one as we speak. I am having problems handling it, and wanted to see what was reasonable.
My wife got married too young, and we're making the best of things now. We love each other and are confident we can work it out. However, she mainly has male friends, and has expressed a need to hang out with whoever she wants to without feeling guilt from me. After a man tried to wine & dine her, I obviously have trust issues I'm working on.
1. Is it reasonable for a married woman (or someone dating exclusively) to go out with male friends (1 or more) alone to bars / restaurants?
2. Does this need put her in positions for temptation, or is forbidding this behavior avoiding the inevitable (if something were to happen)?
3. Do I have the authority to tell her not to see other men in one on one situations since I am insecure about myself at this time after I found out another man was wining/dining her?
I feel if i forbid her, she'll feel trapped and rebel. I also would not like to be told who I can hang out with. But it's just not fair that most of her friends are male, and mine are also male. She does not have to worry about things with me obviously. Having an immature (in the sense of marriage) wife is no picnic, but she's learning and trying and worth being with over the long run.
Re: Need more advice on working through this marriage.
DestinysDad wrote:Hey gang, you guys were very helpful with the last thread and we've made a lot of progress in our relationship. My wife is loving again, and emotionally available.
That's good to hear.
Quote:
With all relationships come change, and we're going through another one as we speak. I am having problems handling it, and wanted to see what was reasonable.
My wife got married too young, and we're making the best of things now. We love each other and are confident we can work it out. However, she mainly has male friends, and has expressed a need to hang out with whoever she wants to without feeling guilt from me. After a man tried to wine & dine her, I obviously have trust issues I'm working on.
Let's take these one at a time...
Quote:
1. Is it reasonable for a married woman (or someone dating exclusively) to go out with male friends (1 or more) alone to bars / restaurants?
As in stopping by with the gang on the way home from work or going out by herself and her guyfriends after dinner? I would say sure, why not to the first and probably not to the second.
Quote:2. Does this need put her in positions for temptation, or is forbidding this behavior avoiding the inevitable (if something were to happen)?
My honest opinion is that she's looking for something that being married is incompatable with. I don't know what she's looking for but you either have to join her with her friends (does she want to include you?) or decide that you trust her or you don't and act accordingly.
Quote:3. Do I have the authority to tell her not to see other men in one on one situations since I am insecure about myself at this time after I found out another man was wining/dining her?
I don't like the word 'authority' when it comes to discussing relationships. None of us has any authority over anyone else but we all have certain expectations of what marriage means to us. If your expectations and your wife's expectations of marriage are on opposite side of the planet then you have a long chore ahead of you figuring out a place in the middle where you're both comfortable. Sure, you can tell her about your feelings and you should tell her. You're entitled to your feelings and keeping them sucked inside will eat you alive. If she won't or can't work with you on them then that should speak volumes.
Quote:I feel if i forbid her, she'll feel trapped and rebel. I also would not like to be told who I can hang out with. But it's just not fair that most of her friends are male, and mine are also male. She does not have to worry about things with me obviously.
I have a number of male friends. I meet them for lunch sometimes, I exchange Christmas presents with them, I worry about them when they're sick or in turmoil - just like my female friends. I'm a good listener. They like to seek my counsel. I don't hide or keep any of this from my husband. I share some of the details but not all of them because some things are told to me in confidence. My husband knows that I love him completely. He doesn't have anything to worry about with my male friends but he knows that. I don't get the sense the you know your wife loves you completely. Maybe she does and maybe she doesn't. What is she looking for in her 'friendships'?
Authority?
You can't FORBID. You don't have AUTHORITY to control another adult's behavior.
You can, however, attempt to MANIPULATE her by making your feelings of jealousy and distrust known to her, by telling her that you don't approve when she socializes with other men, and by throwing temper tantrums, being moody, and making her absolutely miserable when she does something you don't like.
If you make her miserable enough when she misbehaves, she will either conform her behavior to your expectations or leave.
Wait.
That's no way to live.
I suggest that both you and your wife visit the
Marriage Builders website, study the articles, and learn how to build a healthy, happy marriage. You'll be glad you did!
Best wishes!
I agree the word "authority" is wrong. I guess I should have phrased it differently. I did learn that I can only control 50% of any relationship.
I have confronted her, but the conversation turned into conflict, and she said this is who she is, and she can hang out with whoever she wants, be it 1 on 1, 1 on 2, etc. This can include going out after dinner. This are relatively new friends she's pursuing relationships with because she has a lot in common with one of the guys in terms of looks, fashion, etc...
Basically, she's making the demands, and I do not have enough "ammo" to discuss it maturely without sounding like a controlling jealous wreck of a husband. But deep down, I just know something is wrong when she has this need. I think she likes the male attention and getting compliments on her looks.
I honestly feel that if a married woman shows sudden interest in a male friendship, the male is going to think she's wants him. That just seems like a recipe for disaster, and if I want to hang out with this group of friends, I'm not necessarily proud to stand next to my wife. This is a pattern of behavior because she is naive somewhat and doesnt realize when guys are being lead on and what not. I hate playing this waiting game through this potential phase or if she is indeed finishing up her single life while married. An affair will not happen I'm assurred, but emotional dettachment is certainly possible.
I recall from your first thread that you are somehow 'stuck' in this relationship, right? My advise was to start making some long term plans, I stick with what I said then.
Quick question, do you know that her new friend isn't gay?
Quote:Quick question, do you know that her new friend isn't gay?
Good observation. We both thought he was at first, but apparently he is not. I assume the similar fashion/looks may have stirred the question. At first she wanted to go shopping with him mostly, and now she wants to get to know him better.
Hmm, yeah. I have a lot of male friends, but only the gay ones want to go shopping with me. :-)
The problem is, there are few empirical rights and wrongs in relationships. One person would find merely looking at another man/ woman to be a divorceable offense, another would find sleeping with another man/ woman perfectly OK.
So what you have to do is figure out your own tolerance levels and how to work within the relationship.
For example, I would say that it should be fine for her to go out with other men when she wants -- but that's not the end of the story. If you decide that it's fine, then what? Do you stew with rage, does that come out in other ways in your relationship?
I seem to remember from your other thread that you're in counselling -- keep at it, best thing to do. You can figure out with the help of a professional what your boundaries are, how much you can adjust them and how much you can't. If you can't, and if she can't adjust her behavior (and by "can't" I mean "can't do so on a sustained, emotionally healthy basis"), probably simply won't work. And then next time, you'll know to look for someone who is more simpatico in these ways.
Again not right or wrong -- not that hanging out with guys is empirically bad, or that not wanting her to hang out with guys is empirically bad -- just a matter of compatibility.
Good luck!
Thanks Sozobe. You're right about the treshold of tolerance. I think my threshold would grow with more understanding.
Why would a female want to go out with other men to bars at night without their husband? Does it make her feel less guilty for being flirty, or does she cater to her male friends' tastes? Now, there are new male friends we've only hung out with like 3 times in a group, and i have my reservations. If there is a common answer someone can share, i can handle this a lot better.
when you said your wife married too young, how young is too young?
I married too young in my first marriage and married for all the wrong reasons. I recall during that marriage feeling like a bird in a cage. I think I flirted some back then so perhaps I can relate some to your wife. My husband worked evenings at the time and I was still in college. It was a source of contention between us that I went out with my friends (sometimes male) while he was at work. I wasn't about to sit at home alone every night but that doesn't sound like what's happening with you so I don't know. I would be uncomfortable if my spouse announced on a regular basis that he was going out at night with his she-friends and I could like it or lump it. Seems to be pretty one-sided.
DestinysDad, I understand the impulse toward finding one-size-fits-all, easily digestible answers. Unfortunately, as I said before, getting what other people think is acceptable or unacceptable is not going to help your relationship that much, IMO. If you get 90% of people saying she shouldn't be going out with other guys, then what? (Or vice versa for that matter.) You still have to deal with it within the parameters of your own relationship.
In terms of understanding... what does she say? I can imagine all sorts of reasons. One is that it is dangerous to expect one person to be your be-all and end-all. That's not healthy for anyone. So maybe she finds you sweet, nurturing, loving, stable, all kinds of good things, but one thing you don't provide for her is a certain sense of humor or spontaneity. (Making that up, just an example.) So she finds that elsewhere. That's not pathological, though it can certainly easily shade into behavior that is not OK. I think it's healthier, in general, for two people to have active lives on their own as well as a shared life with their spouse rather than no lives of their own and only a shared life with their spouse.
Quote:In terms of understanding... what does she say? I can imagine all sorts of reasons. One is that it is dangerous to expect one person to be your be-all and end-all. That's not healthy for anyone. So maybe she finds you sweet, nurturing, loving, stable, all kinds of good things, but one thing you don't provide for her is a certain sense of humor or spontaneity. (Making that up, just an example.) So she finds that elsewhere. That's not pathological, though it can certainly easily shade into behavior that is not OK. I think it's healthier, in general, for two people to have active lives on their own as well as a shared life with their spouse rather than no lives of their own and only a shared life with their spouse.
Thanks, that quote helps me better cope and understand things. I think you're right on actually. I cannot provide the exciting wine / dine lifestlye of going out to wild clubs and bars, but i do provide all the other things. I dont necessarily like that, but i understand better. I will test my threshold and parameters and see where we go.
Ok I think if you are having problems it is not a good time to tempt fate. I too was married at a very young age and my marriage has lasted a long time. I have lots of male friends and yes I do go out with them but I know not too when I am having issues with my husband. Also there is never a reason why he can not come with me. That maybe why he knows he can trust me. I think even I would have a problem if he told me I couldn't go with him if he was invited by a female to go out. There has to be respect in the relationship. Are you aloud to go out with female friends?
I know I can go out with my male friends and i have them online but I choose to go out with them and my husband not so much alone. And she is a big girl she knows when a man is coming on strong and if she puts her self in that positon then she has no respect for you. It is a hard thing to keep a marriage together it takes work from both sides. I'll be honest here it is not hard to fall in love with some one else. Just cause your maried does not stop that and that is why i say if there is issues right now it's not the time for her to venture out with "male friends" cause she will find the things she is looking for or feels you lack in them. I know this from personal knowledge. Now when your marriage is secure and no issues or you feel confident in her then I see no reason why she coudln't have male friends. When this other guy was taking her out to dinner did she respond to him? or did she tell you about it? You know your wife better than anyone and if you don't then again you tow need to work on each other before you bring others in.
Quote:I'll be honest here it is not hard to fall in love with some one else. Just cause your maried does not stop that and that is why i say if there is issues right now it's not the time for her to venture out with "male friends" cause she will find the things she is looking for or feels you lack in them. I know this from personal knowledge.
Thanks for the honesty there, great advice. Would you be able to discuss further the personal knowledge?
For now, she seems to have stopped hanging out with male friends, and actually went out with a female friend today after work. Her social life is closer to what it was right before we had our big problems, and I know the cycle can be unhealthy, and we havent solved anything it seems ... but i dont want to remind her to hang out with people to pursue her separate life ... quite the dilemma ... stay happy for now, or actually take the risk to work on things knowning I'm tempting fate ... i guess it's better to tempt fate since things are what they are.
D-Dad. I hope I am not restating an already posted opinion- lots of people have posted lots of things.
My wife and I have had to work through this. Growing up, my wifes friends were a group of guys she still calls "The Boy's"... buddies she has always known. I was the lots of girlfriends guy. My little black book contained a very long list of female freinds I just hung out with.
When we got married, out of respect for my commitment to my new wife, I ditched the book and chose to never violate her trust by hanging out with my girlfreinds one on one. She, however, didn't feel the same.
I have never been uncomfortable with her hanging out with the "Boys". beacause "They" are harmless. I do and have always had issue with her hanging out with a "Boy". At first she was irratated by this Jelousy - as she called it- and we would argue about how I don't trust her blah blah blah. What we finally figured out by talking together is that our marriage is the first and most important realtionship above all others- old or new- and that my feelings weren't so much jelousy but a rightfull desire to not ever have the question or suspision of infidelity come between us.
We finally asked eachother and ourselves the question..."Would I honestly feel comfortable knowing that my spouse was with another person of the opposite sex one on one and be able to not hold it against them in the morning?"
For both of us the answer was 'NO" & "Why even risk testing the answer." We cause eachother enough grief already so why risk these kinds of feelings creeping into our relationship.
Anyway that's my take. Marriage is really frickin hard already. Why complicate it even more with an issue that, out of mutual respect, can be ended and avoided.
Best of luck.
Quote:Anyway that's my take. Marriage is really frickin hard already. Why complicate it even more with an issue that, out of mutual respect, can be ended and avoided.
I like that last statement especially. I will definitely try to share this with my wife, and if she cant respect it, then we've got bigger fish to fry i suppose. Maybe I need to find a bunch of female friends ... hmm, i wouldnt know where to begin looking.
Hello,
I don't want to open up an old topic, but this one was very helpful, and gives me hope that my wife and I can resolve the situation.
We moved to the area, where we currently live, about 2 years ago, and had to find new friends and everything. I am happy to see that my wife found a few new friends lately, that I also consider my friends, and that we regularly hang out with as a couple, like going to the movies, meeting for breakfast and so on. Since I work a lot, I sometimes skip on the group activities, and my wife sort of thinks, that it is "her" group of friends, not really mine for some reason.
Last sunday, which is usually our quality time day, and we usually do something together on that day if we aren't broke, she said that she wanted to see a movie with one of her guyfriends. I took it like she meant, that "we" want to see that movie with him. I asked her about some details, and she said, that she wants to go alone, and doesn't want me there, because it is her friend, not mine.
I don't really mind if she goes out with friends, because I am always welcome to go with her (at least I had that impression in the past), even though I am not always going when I am too tired or have other plans. But a movie "date" where she doesn't want me to be there? I was thrown of and reacted very jelaous, and we had a huge fight. Eventually she cancelled the movie thing and is still very mad.
We haven't really worked it out yet, but after reading this, I will talk to her and try to work it out. I know I overreacted, but I still think it is wrong not to want your spouse around when you meet with a friend for entertainment. I certainly can understand if she wants to meet with a friend that needs to talk about his problems one on one. But this was different, I felt so left out, especially with something that we both usually enjoy. We go to the movies together quite often, and I don't get it why she wanted to go alone with someone other than me. Maybe I am overreacting, but to me it sounds like: Well, you are my spouse, but I want to meet with this guyfriend, and do married couple things for a while with him, without you. I am not talking about sex, just the daily things in life that we share. I am all confused right now, we really need to work this out.
Again, thanks for your advice!
G
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