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What is Evangelism?

 
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2021 10:07 am
@Leadfoot,


Which Jesus are you referring to? The historians Jesus or the person Jesus?
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2021 10:35 am
Ravi Zacharias, Influential Evangelist, Is Accused of Sexual Abuse in Scathing Report
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/11/us/ravi-zacharias-sexual-abuse.html
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2021 11:36 am
@TheCobbler,
By the three and a half minute point there were so many factual errors that I got nauseous. If you don’t, it means you are either ignorant of reality or you hate it for one reason or another.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2021 11:43 am
@TheCobbler,
Re:
Quote:
Ravi Zacharias, Influential Evangenlist.

As foretold in old and new book, there will be a lot of phonies who come in his name.
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Feb, 2021 07:49 pm
@Leadfoot,
Please name one factual error.

Just one...
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2021 07:40 am
@TheCobbler,
The 'fact' that he asserts - that the Romans invented Jesus in order to defeat the Jews is so nonsensical as to be a joke. There are more copies of both old an New Testaments than any other document of those eras.

The only true fact in the first three and a half minutes was that the Jews were looking for an earthly King who would save them. The rest is a just-so story of how the Romans plotted to eliminate the Jews, as if the Jews were in any position to overthrow them (also a laughable idea at that time).

The fact is that the Romans had a cozy relationship with the Jewish leaders which was working just fine for both. The LAST thing that either wanted was to shake things up.

You’d have to have some pretty deep discomfort with 'religion' to buy that preposterous story.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2021 03:26 pm
@Leadfoot,
The Romans invented many "gods", the fact that you find this unbelievable simply shows your bias...

Cozy relations, one prime example was Josephus.

Whether if it was cozy or a relationship or one of need, is disputable but a relationship none the less. To assume this was the only one is rather naive.

I am sure there were many liberal Jews who were sick of the orthodox hypocrites and sought to "Romanize" the religion.

There are also many copies of the Lord Of The Rings and Mad Magazine... Your logic is a joke.

Hmm, even Jesus would fit into this category of radical.

Jesus was born in a Romanized Jewish world, His hometown had a very large Roman amphitheater.

Rabbinic Judaism itself was Romanized...

All of Jerusalem at the time of Jesus was simply a Roman outpost with Jewish/Roman legions and a Roman ruler.

Just because they had war does not mean they were both still not Romans.

Rome went to war against Athens and Rome was also Hellenized....

You have to have lived under a rock to not see the influences of multiculturalism, at the time of the supposed Jesus.

I will also say that the story Josephus used to describe Titus was ripped off from much older myths of conquerors.

Titus got the standard conqueror cookie-cutter myth applied to him too.

Romans 8:37
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Comment:
That last verse is the cookie cutter outline applied to all "conquerors".

There were many Jews who had a vested interest in seeing the draconian ruling elites and their zealousness for the law in Jerusalem at the time bowled over by Roman liberty.

There were many sects like the Essenes who simply loathed the ruling elites of Jerusalem.

Rome did not need to create the Jesus story it was already there. The liberal scribes simply wrote down the obvious and made it seem legitimate.

Were these scribes Romans? They were probably a mix of Romans, Greeks, Persians and Jews (and many others)...

Nobody liked the Old Testament laws... Not even the rabbinate. The rabbis by their own existence were against the law. Isn't this what Jesus said to them?

Matthew 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Comment:
Jesus said the Pharisees followed tradition rather than the law. (The rabbis "traditions" came from Rome also...)


Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2021 06:18 pm
@TheCobbler,
Yep, uncomfortable and desperate.
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2021 04:23 pm
Beth Moore, a Prominent Evangelical, Splits With Southern Baptists
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/10/us/beth-moore-southern-baptists.html
By Ruth Graham and Elizabeth Dias
March 10, 2021

From the outside, the marriage of convenience between white conservative Christians and Donald J. Trump looked like a devoted one: White evangelicals voted for Mr. Trump overwhelmingly in 2016 and stuck with him in 2020, brushing aside perpetual lies and sexual impropriety to support a man they saw as their protector.

However, not everyone was content.

Now, one of the most prominent white evangelical women in the United States is breaking with her longtime denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, citing the “staggering” disorientation of seeing its leaders support Mr. Trump, and the cultural and spiritual fallout from that support.

“There comes a time when you have to say, this is not who I am,” Beth Moore, told Religion News Service in an interview published on Tuesday. “I am still a Baptist, but I can no longer identify with Southern Baptists,” she added.

Her stature in the movement poses a serious challenge for the Southern Baptist Convention, which has already been embroiled for years in debates not just about Mr. Trump, but about racism, misogyny and the handling of sexual abuse cases. Its membership is in decline.

Her departure is “tectonic in its reverberations,” said Jemar Tisby, the president of a Black Christian collective called the Witness. “Beth Moore has more influence and more cachet with Southern Baptists, especially white Southern Baptist women, than the vast majority of Southern Baptist pastors or other leaders. So her leaving is not just about one individual.”

Ms. Moore is not a traditional leader for the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the country. She does not lead a church — she is a woman, and the Southern Baptist Convention reserves the office of head pastor for men. But she arguably wields deeper loyalty and more influence than many of the men often called on as spokesmen for evangelicalism.

For most of her career as a Bible teacher, Ms. Moore, 63, avoided the culture and political battles that consumed the attention of many prominent evangelical men. She wrote extremely popular study guides focused on particular books of the Bible. And she spoke to arenas full of evangelical women about matters both spiritual and personal, mining biblical texts for lessons in purpose and encouragement.

But Ms. Moore has described the election of 2016 as a turning point. She began speaking out after the “Access Hollywood” tape, released just weeks before the election, captured Mr. Trump bragging about forcing himself on women.

Since then, she has become increasingly outspoken online and has exerted her authority and power in new ways that have challenged the male-dominated culture of evangelicalism.

In 2018, she published a letter to her “brothers in Christ” sharing her bruising experiences with sexism as a female leader in the conservative Christian world. On Twitter, where she now has more than 950,000 followers, she has denounced Christian nationalism, the “demonic stronghold” of white supremacy and “the sexism & misogyny that is rampant in segments of the SBC.”

Ms. Moore has become a kind of lightning rod for critics of the Southern Baptist Convention from the right. In 2019, an offhand online remark from Ms. Moore about speaking at a Sunday morning service on Mother’s Day set off a sprawling evangelical debate about whether women should be allowed to preach in church. One California megachurch pastor told her to “go home.”

Within the denomination, her departure has so far been greeted largely by either silence or measured regret.

“I have loved and appreciated Beth Moore’s ministry and will continue to in the future,” the denomination’s president, J.D. Greear, said in a statement. Mr. Greear said he hoped the news of Ms. Moore’s departure would cause the denomination to “lament,” pray and rededicate itself to core values.

“It saddens me to hear from those like Beth who no longer feel at home within our convention,” Ronnie Floyd, the president and chief executive of the denomination’s executive committee, said in a statement.

An assistant to Ms. Moore at her Houston-based ministry said she had no further comment beyond her interview with Religion News Service. Ms. Moore told the news service she had recently ended her longtime publishing relationship with Lifeway Christian Resources, the denomination’s publishing arm. She suggested that her writing and speaking career would continue, though she expected that her audiences might be smaller for a while.

Ms. Moore has also publicly supported others critical of conservative evangelicalism from within. This week Mr. Tisby, the president of the Black Christian collective, described on a podcast for the first time his experiences of racism in white evangelical communities. His testimony was part of a campaign called #LeaveLoud, to tell the stories of Black Christians leaving evangelical spaces. Ms. Moore replied to him on Twitter.

“Jemar, one of the most powerful podcasts I’ve ever heard,” she said, adding: “You will be a hero to your descendants. And you are one of mine.”

J.D. Greear, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, left, with Ronnie Floyd, the president and chief executive of the convention’s Executive Committee, at the annual meeting in Birmingham, Ala., in 2019. Both men have publicly lamented Ms. Moore’s departure.Credit...Jon Shapley/Houston Chronicle, via Associated Press
Ms. Moore often spoke out against widespread sexual abuse in the denomination and the reluctance of churches to face it, while many men in leadership often soft-pedaled the issue.

Jenny Taylor, 40, who grew up in Southern Baptist churches, left one of the denomination’s most prominent churches, the Village, a few years ago, angered by its leaders’ treatment of a young woman who brought a sex abuse allegation against a former minister.

When she heard the news on Tuesday that Ms. Moore, someone she had long admired and respected, was also now leaving the Southern Baptists, she felt less alone.

“A lot of things that feel like core issues have come into question about my faith in the past few years,” she said. “Once that happened, it feels like everything is up for examination. It feels so destabilizing and scary. To see someone like her — who has been a model of faith through the years — take a similar route is just comforting and encouraging.”

Ms. Moore’s decision to step away from the Southern Baptist Convention quickly drew praise from other prominent Christian women who have walked away from white American evangelicalism.

“While there are a thousand ways we can robustly disagree as people of faith, there are and should be deal breakers: the defense of white supremacy, patriarchal abuse, moral bankruptcy, the crushing of human souls for proximity to power,” Jen Hatmaker, a popular podcaster and author, said.

About five years ago, Ms. Hatmaker broke with evangelicalism because of her opposition to Mr. Trump and her support of gay marriage.

Ms. Moore’s decision was “a harbinger of the future,” Ms. Hatmaker said. And though Ms. Moore was a trailblazer for the denomination, evangelical women have been defecting for years, she said.

“People have had enough, and there is no lock on the door,” she said. “God does not belong to the S.B.C.”

During the Trump era, some white evangelical women have grown more uncomfortable with their churches’ values about sex, race and politics, especially as their denominational leaders supported Mr. Trump through the separation of migrant children from their parents at the border, nationwide protests after the killing of George Floyd, and the #MeToo revolution.

“Women of color were the first to see it, then men of color, and now white women are starting to wake up,” Lisa Sharon Harper, president of FreedomRoad.us, a Christian justice group, said.

“They are having to believe what they are seeing,” she said of white evangelical women. “It is hard to respond to. It literally means giving up everything, literally everything.”

Ms. Moore’s decision reflects an alignment of her inner life with her outer life, Ms. Harper said, and it may prompt other white evangelical women to think about their own lives and decisions.

“We may not see the results for a few years, but I think it will cause an earthquake,” she said.

Already, Ms. Moore’s departure is showing how her denomination is changing, and purifying itself into a more unyielding form of orthodoxy.

“The fact that Beth Moore joyfully promotes herself as a woman who preaches to men is only the tip of the iceberg of her problematic positions,” Tom Buck, senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas, said in a post online following the news.

“I sincerely wish Mrs. Moore had repented rather than left,” he wrote. “But if she refuses to repent, I am glad she is gone from the S.B.C. Sadly, leaving the S.B.C. won’t fix what is wrong with Beth Moore.”

But for some of Ms. Moore’s fans, her departure already feels liberating.

Joy Beth Smith, who said she “adores” Ms. Moore, described 2016 as a reckoning for her, too. And watching Ms. Moore leave now, she says, has validated her own evolving relationship with a religious tradition that no longer provides the solace and authority it once did. “She has given us permission to leave those broken institutions,” Ms. Smith said.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2021 04:38 pm
@TheCobbler,
does she speak in "tongues"?
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2021 05:14 pm
@farmerman,
I don't believe the Baptists speak in tongues.

Most of them believe that practice ended with the apostles.

I speak in tongues privately and have for a couple of decades when I will to do it.

Speaking in tongues is "perfect prayer" and utters mysteries to God that our understanding is incapable of comprehending.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2021 05:25 pm
@TheCobbler,
what are some of the S Baptists beliefs that make their religion more asymptotic to th rest of Christianity? They are still Young Earth Creationists no?
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2021 08:53 pm
@farmerman,
I am not sure about the various doctrines of the Baptists.

I know they are a union of a lot of churches that have been thrown together as if they had some sort of connection. In reality the churches within are very varied and the glue that holds them together is apparently not as much of a bond as one might think.

Just as the union of the scriptures are a group of contradictory passages that only the deluded and foolhardy can find avid faith in.

The young earth doctrine is an attempt to contort the scriptures into fitting with their "traditional beliefs". They never stop to possibly doubt or reevaluate these traditions.

Even the scriptures teach evolution, "Let the earth bring forth"...

But their tradition is more important than what the Bible actually says.

This in itself is the crack in the veneer that allows all sorts of erroneous thought to creep in and take root in their dogma.

Trump is one of the many Frankenstein appendages that their tradition has fostered.

Tradition versus truth.

...it seems truth nearly always takes a back seat to their tradition.

"In order to form a more perfect union"

The union of the S. Baptist church is far from perfect, it was born out of extortion and deleterious means. The unraveling thereof is par for the course.
BillW
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2021 11:00 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

what are some of the S Baptists beliefs that make their religion more asymptotic to th rest of Christianity? They are still Young Earth Creationists no?

Quote:
The word Southern in Southern Baptist Convention stems from it having been organized in 1845 at Augusta, Georgia, by Baptists in the Southern United States who split with northern Baptists over the issue of slavery, with Southern Baptists strongly opposed to its abolition.[4] After the American Civil War, another split occurred when most freedmen set up independent black congregations, regional associations, and state and national conventions, such as the National Baptist Convention, which became the second-largest Baptist convention by the end of the 19th century.
..............
.......Southern Baptist churches are evangelical in doctrine and practice. As they emphasize the significance of the individual conversion experience, which is affirmed by the person having complete immersion in water for a believer's baptism, they reject the practice of infant baptism. The SBC claims that other specific beliefs based on biblical interpretation can vary due to their congregational polity, and that parishes are given local autonomy. These claims are disputed by pastors with views on LGBT rights, race, and politics which are in conflict with the SBC executive committee and whose parishes have been threatened with expulsion from the SBC.

-Wikipedia
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2021 07:56 am
@TheCobbler,
Quote:
Just as the union of the scriptures are a group of contradictory passages that only the deluded and foolhardy can find avid faith in.

Maybe you just gave up before gaining a perspective from which the contradictions disappear.
The books themselves point out that they will look foolish until you do.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Mar, 2021 03:24 pm
@Leadfoot,
Or, maybe you are deluded and think if you twist and contort the meaning of the scriptures enough, you can force every verse to fit together with your traditional idea of fundamentalism.

I am inclined to believe the latter is true.

"we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus"

"by faith alone"

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Now is it charity or faith? If each word did not have a different meaning then they would not all be listed in the same verse.

There is a difference.

Or were people just writing what came from their own human understanding? Were their writings subject to their own will, is the Bible in conflict with itself?

1 Corinthians 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Contradiction

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost [Spirit].

Comment:
Are the spirits (revelations/words) of the prophets subject to their own will or the will of God?

Comment:
I have indeed studied and researched these verses, my question is, have you?

"Let the earth bring forth" surely sounds like evolution to me.

But fundamentalist tradition doesn't really care what is written...

They would rather confess that the earth is 6000 years old than admit they came from apes... (This flat Earth tradition born out of pure racism.)

We have the Corona virus evolving and mutating into a new strain right before our eyes and creationists refuse to wear a mask.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Mar, 2021 07:06 pm
@TheCobbler,
Quote:
Or, maybe you are deluded and think if you twist and contort the meaning of the scriptures enough, you can force every verse to fit together with your traditional idea of fundamentalism.

I am inclined to believe the latter is true.
You are entitled to your opinion.

Quote:
"we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus"

"by faith alone"

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Now is it charity or faith? If each word did not have a different meaning then they would not all be listed in the same verse.

There is a difference.

Or were people just writing what came from their own human understanding? Were their writings subject to their own will, is the Bible in conflict with itself ?
If you are asking me, I see no contradiction.
In the first instance the scripture is talking about what is needed for our salvation - Faith. And it doesn’t say 'blind faith'.
The second is the priority we should place on charity (which is understood to mean 'love'. Because if you have not love, you sure as hell can’t have anything like real faith.

Quote:
1 Corinthians 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Contradiction

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost [Spirit].

Comment:
Are the spirits (revelations/words) of the prophets subject to their own will or the will of God?

Comment:
I have indeed studied and researched these verses, my question is, have you?
. In all cases you quote them grossly out of context. And you accuse believers of 'cherry picking? You show no evidence of having studied the scriptures. As you should know, Paul and Peter were addressing different groups at different times about different problems.

Paul was talking about proper order during worship gatherings. He's saying, 'You may have something of the spirit to say, but don’t everybody start yapping at once. Control yourself until it’s your turn.' If you are familiar with fundamentalists, you’d know what he’s talking about. God what confusion

The verse reads more fully:

1 Corinthians 14:32-33 KJV
[32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
[33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


Quote:
"Let the earth bring forth" surely sounds like evolution to me.

But fundamentalist tradition doesn't really care what is written...

They would rather confess that the earth is 6000 years old than admit they came from apes... (This flat Earth tradition born out of pure racism.)

We have the Corona virus evolving and mutating into a new strain right before our eyes and creationists refuse to wear a mask.

Really, you got the theory of Evolution from that. Huh.

And I’m not here to defend fundamentalist beliefs. The scriptures do not say the earth is six thousand years old.
If that wasn’t enough, then you go drag in corona virus in a desperate attempt to make your argument.

We were talking about the scriptures, remember?
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Mar, 2021 10:29 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
In the first instance the scripture is talking about what is needed for our salvation - Faith. And it doesn’t say 'blind faith'.


Your brain is so twisted, like a pretzel.

Why not blind faith?
You have contradicted Jesus.


John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Comment:
One who has not seen is, "blind"...

Blessed are they that believe without evidence.

Believing without evidence can also be considered foolish.

Umm... Like, buying land without first determining if it is a swamp or sink hole...

But you seem to think your tradition is greater than Jesus's exhortation towards blind faith.

But if you rationalize and wrench Jesus' words into your own conformity and tradition you can make them say the exact opposite.

Blessed are they that see first? Is that your meaning?

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Comment:
But humans can surely author confusion.

Which is exactly my point.

If we can easily find so much confusion in the Bible, who is the author?

Leadfoot wrote:
The scriptures do not say the earth is six thousand years old.


If you follow the genealogies back to Adam it is 6000 years.

So maybe you should be arguing with God over the age of the Earth.

Of maybe you should just believe what it says without seeing any evidence? (cynical)

And if charity is greater than faith then who needs faith?

Those with charity are greater than those with faith? It seems faith alone is not "salvation".

Another contradiction.

"Saved by faith" and "faith without works is dead".

How can something dead save? It must be alive to save.

Dead faith is an oxymoron. Faith is a verb.

Contradictions.

Unless you can be on the fence and out in the field at the same time. That might require some, "deception".

Is this why so many fundamentalist Christians are liars?

How about faith without honesty?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2021 06:00 am
@TheCobbler,
There is more to 'evidence' than literally seeing something.
The fact that 'Science' tells you that dark matter exists, and you believe it, ought to make you understand the point.

But there is plenty to see as well. The scriptures say what is obvious to me - 'There are none with any excuse'. You live in a world that was obviously created, although denial is rampant.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2021 06:05 am
@Leadfoot,
"dark matter" is merely a witty explanation for aspects of excess gravity in the Galaxy.
 

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