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What is Evangelism?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2020 05:53 am
@TheCobbler,
Quote:
It is the whole truth and nothing but the truth or can a half truth still have some useful meaning?

Many writings are full of holes but they still may carry some truths that are self evident.

I’ve never been a fan of half-truth. The truth is usually only there to sell me on the deception. And when the truth is self evident, I have no need of the holes to show it to me.

Yes, the scriptures in many places are addressed to specific people, and they clearly say so. But if you think modern man is any different than the people of that time, I have yet to see it.

Either there is an interpretation of the book that has an unadulterated truth at its center, or it’s trash not worth reading.

TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Apr, 2020 07:23 pm
@Leadfoot,
There is no writing on earth that is not full of holes because of the human element.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2020 09:16 am
@TheCobbler,
Oh there is definitely the human element in there. Makes it a bit harder to figure out the full interpretation, but not impossible.

Any particular 'hole'/human element that you see as a barrier to a coherent interpretation?
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2020 08:15 am
@Leadfoot,
The holes are the apparent contradictions and the flagrant plagiarism.

Christianity was once thought of as a "new" religion, but it seems as the knowledge that was burned in Alexandria is recovered in other lands, Christianity is merely a rehash of much older ideas. Only to be bit in the heel by its own epitaph, there is truly "nothing new under the sun".

Like changing the rug and racism... but still the same furniture.

I think that is my major gripe within the system of the Bible and most other Abrahamic religion is racism... They "all" seem to sneak it in and it is insidious at best.

Hammurabi (whoever he was) wrote the law, not Moses or God...

There is nothing really sacred in the Bible, it all comes from an earlier time of enlightenment.

Theft of intellectual property is what it is called today. And they did not even tack on a happy ending, the biblical writers left the world in apocalyptic fear and despair. What a disservice to humanity...

Hating this world for one to come is as bitter and ungrateful as can be.

Pick up your trash and stop dumping on this world.

See the beauty here that comes only once in a lifetime for the lucky few.
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2020 06:15 pm
I was raised in a non traditional Christian religion so my understanding of the Bible is different than most.

For instance.

The devil tempted Adam and Eve, and God apparently found this to be worthy of some sort of punishment.

So God declared a curse on the devil.

Genesis 2:15 KJB
And I will put enmity between thee [the devil] and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy [the devil's] head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Comment: One thing one should notice in this verse are the words "her seed".

A woman does not have seeds, she has eggs...

So this verse can only be talking about a future son/seed that would be born of woman and this son would execute some sort of justice on the devil.

Fast forward to Noah...

I was taught that the devil was so powerful that God often took responsibility for the devil's actions so as not to scare humanity too much.

Back then, had humanity known how powerful the devil really was they would lose hope and the will to prevail against "evil". So God would take the blame instead. [see Job]

So many times when the Bible talks about God in the Old Testament it is actually referring to "the God of this world" the devil.

I was taught this is the case with Noah's flood, When the Bible says God caused it to rain 40 days and 40 nights, it was not actually God causing the rain but it was the devil. Though, it was God who helped Noah avoid the catastrophe.

Stop and ponder that thought for a bit. Why would God destroy humanity? What possible motive would God have for doing this? Wasn't it God who gave Adam and Eve free will?
Wouldn't God have foreseen in the garden how free will might have become a problem?

Now consider, what would be the devil's motive for destroying humanity?

Perhaps this "promised seed" (a son) that was supposed to be born of woman who would "bruise the head of the serpent"? This would be ample motive for the devil wanting all of humanity dead. Or, at least a good portion of humanity in order to create chaos, a smokescreen...

One may survive having their heel bruised but a bruise to the head is usually fatal.

So the motive is that the devil would rather live in an uninhabited world with people dying all around him than to face justice and judgment for his corrupt deeds.

People will sell out their country to the enemy, flood the world with sickness, lie (with fake news and uncorroborated conspiracies), steal and kill in order to escape facing their own misdeeds.

They will deny culpability, shift the blame, imply that they act for a "greater moral purpose" and then say, "the people made me do it!".

Who made the people evil? "The people were evil continuously"... Or was the purpose of "the flood" for another reason altogether?

To avoid judgment for wrongdoing.

How far will our world leaders go to escape judgment? Would they rather live in an uninhabited world than admit their wrongs???

There may never have been an actual flood in the days of Noah and certainly not one that covered the whole earth.

Regardless of the stories truth or not, the moral of the story is that certain "parties" will stoop to any low level, even destruction of life (while claiming to be pro-life) in order to escape facing judgment for their own misdeeds.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2020 04:55 am
@TheCobbler,
Quote:
Genesis 2:15 KJB
And I will put enmity between thee [the devil] and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy [the devil's] head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Comment: One thing one should notice in this verse are the words "her seed".

A woman does not have seeds, she has eggs...

So this verse can only be talking about a future son/seed that would be born of woman and this son would execute some sort of justice on the devil.

That is interesting, never considered that angle, but it is certainly compatible with the rest of my own interpretation of the book.

I'm practically OCD about looking for contradictions (Bible, society, myself, religion, etc). Sounds like you have the same 'problem'.

So far I have not had to interpret Satan as God in order to resolve any but I would be interested in why you (and many others) have a problem with God ending the Earthy life of either an individual or an entire civilization.

What I mean is, if you take the idea of God and what he was trying to accomplish seriously, why wouldn’t he have a 'right' to such measures? Man feels justified or even righteous in doing the same or worse in some situations, so how can man insist that God doesn’t have the moral right there and we do. Seems like the ultimate hypocrisy.
TheCobbler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2020 06:31 pm
@Leadfoot,
In the Biblical story of Adam And Eve, God planned for them to have everlasting life in the garden.

This was why God placed the tree of life in the garden and told them they could freely eat of this tree.

It was God's desire that they live perpetually with an exceeding abundance of life and health. This exemplifies the quality that God is life. God is the fruit of life.

Once they were introduced to sin and tyranny, it was only then that God placed a flaming sword barring the way to the tree of life.

For had they consumed the fruit of the tree of life while in their sinful state then they would have perpetuated this sin for all eternity.

This is why people die... Because the tree of life would make this original sin eternal.

God loved humanity to not allow that to happen.

Once the spirit is purified than this tree of life is again made available.

The question becomes, what is it that truly constitutes sin to God?

Then also one might ask, why did the devil also destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

The love of angels? Are gay people also inherently spiritual? Was Jesus gay?
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2020 05:58 am
@TheCobbler,
Don’t know if Jesus was gay or not. But I would follow him anywhere, regardless.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2020 10:06 am
@Leadfoot,
Did the flood really happen? Well there may be an actual event associated with this story but given the plagiarism, it seems unlikely.

Were Sodom and Gomorrah real cities? Considering the smoldering remains have never been found, it seems likely that their existence is also fictional as would also be their destruction. Pompeii was covered by the debris of a volcano and it was still found.

Did Jesus exist? The record of his life certainly exists but that record is highly suspect as ever being the actual chronicle of a real person. It has been edited, embellished and corrupted by many scribes and political factions before it was presented to you and I.

If Jesus ever existed he was just a man as the scriptures also bear record in many places of his true nature. Though many stories of people have left indelible marks on the world for their great works, that of Jesus being no exception.

But was Jesus infallible? The record of Jesus can be scrutinized and many of his own faults found therein but as to the real man Jesus (if he existed) given the human condition it is likely he had faults also.

But don't we all? But some people rise above their faults and become illustrious and revered for their good deeds.

The apocrypha write of Jesus being a mischievous child...

Though, good deeds can, "cover a multitude of sins".

So it comes down to the idea that there was no Adam and Eve in the Garden, there was no great flood, there was no Sodom and Gomorrah and there was no Jesus but the remnants of the morality of these tales leave ideals to be reckoned with.

If there was no Adam and Eve, there was no original sin, the was no great flood and murder of humanity, so there likewise, was no God or devil to blame... and there was no savior of the world either, other than stories created solely in the imagination of poets and philosophers. Salvation is built upon a myth.

But is there still evil in this world? Yes, there most certainly is...

Science, reason, rationale and conscience are our saving grace, not some person or god that we follow blindly because it seems like the right thing to do.

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Comment: As there is evil, there is also truth, light, many kinds of love, understanding, acceptance, tolerance, goodness, kindness and grace.

Rather than fabricated events, a deity or person whose existence and life is fictional, perhaps an evidentiary approach to wisdom is more in keeping with "truth".
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2020 11:06 am
@TheCobbler,
Floods did happen, most religions have a flood myth. Floods happen today, but there is no evidence at all that a flood covered the whole World.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 08:50 am
@izzythepush,
Floods did happen that is for sure, but considering that the biblical flood was plagiarized from the Babylonian story right down to the dove and raven the were sent out, it is likely there was no biblical flood at all...

It was fabricated to give credence to racist (and sexist, homophobic...) literature.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 09:05 am
@TheCobbler,
Well yes, the Greeks have a flood story too.

What I find interesting are those stories that may have more than a kernel of truth in them.

I’ve heard that the story about the crossing of the Red Sea coincided with the volcanic eruption on the island of Santorini. That would have caused something similar to what Moses is claimed to have done.

By all accounts Santorini is beautiful. When I was on holiday in Crete one of the other holidaymakers went on a day trip there. I regret no going, but I did see lots of wonderful stuff. Crete really is wonderful.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 09:17 am
@izzythepush,
I agree Izzy, there does seem to be more of an element of truth to the Red Sea incident.

The plagues do correspond to a typical series of events after a real natural disaster. Though the Red Sea story too could have been plagiarized from a long lost document. There is a kernel of truth but which ear of corn was this kernel plucked from?

Even the death of the first born can be attributed to them being fed the "first fruits of harvest" if the harvest was diseased they would have died.

The people spared by the "angel of death" may have had a different custom sparing their first born... The Israelites may have actually been fasting.

It seems the closer the Old Testament come to modern day the more factual, in many places, it appears to become.

If the was no truth in it at all no one would follow it, but many take the "truth" to the nth degree.

Even the story of a baby found floating in the river was from a much older "myth"...
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 09:21 am
@TheCobbler,
I think the truth in the Old Testament is few and far between, but there has to be some somewhere. Egypt is a real place after all.
TheCobbler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 09:32 am
@izzythepush,
Egypt is a real place and the Israelites are real people too, they did not just appear out of nowhere. Their history goes back to Africa like all other races do.

I tend to think that Akhenaten may have been the father of the Jewish people's sect.

Egypt several times throughout history occupied all of the holy lands.

There is no doubt that the Canaanite and the Egyptian people were neighbors who were often at odds with one another.

There is also the story of Jericho, that seems to also have a kernel of truth along with a fantastical fabrication of events.
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