Abu Ghraib: Tortured ... over car theft

DrewDad wrote:

CoastalRat wrote:
nimh wrote:
CoastalRat wrote:
Let's say he was tossed into jail for car theft and while there was raped by other prisoners. [..] I would not feel sorry for him

I honestly don't know what is left to say after that.

I take it you feel sorry for people who get thrown into jail and then have things happen to them? Things they could have forseen and avoided by being law-abiding citizens? That is fine. You can feel as sorry for them as you want. Next time one of them kill a family member and then while behind bars gets beaten or raped, just keep reminding yourself how sorry you feel for them. Maybe it will help your loved one rest easier to know how much sympathy you have for criminals.

At what point do you say "they deserve everything they get?"
Spitting on the sidewalk?
Noise violations?
Passing a bad check?
Underage drinking?
Drunk and disorderly?
Drunk driving?

At this point, however, I assume you are posting this trash to get attention.

Nothing personal, but are you all trying to be dense? I have never said "they deserve everything they get?" Please stop trying to make my words say more than what I have said. But, to humor you and others, any law-breaker deserves exactly the LEGAL punishment they get. Anything else that happens to them, getting beaten in prison, raped, tortured, humiliated or whatever, while regrettable and certainly not something I would be happy about, is not deserving of my sympathy. They themselves contributed to the circumstances that led to the "whatever".

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nimh wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
I've read that some children of some president were unlawfully and drunk alcohol.

Are you suggesting we should fear that they might come and try to kill us now

No, he's saying that if the Bush girls had been arrested at the time and then raped in jail, he would not have felt sorry for them.

That is exactly what I am saying Nimh. Would they deserve to have been raped? No, of course not. But I would not feel sympathy because they were there due to their own actions.

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Quote:

They themselves contributed to the circumstances that led to the "whatever".

Call me dense, but I'm having trouble understanding how this is different from saying they deserve it.

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CoastalRat wrote:

...I have stated is that I do not, and will not, feel sympathy for someone, anyone, who thru their OWN ACTIONS, places into motion events that lead to their being tortured, abused, neglected or humiliated.

I fail to see how a prisoner who broke a law (lets say stealing gum) and being in prison is responsible for the criminal actions of a guard who abuses him.

If you walk in on an armed robbery (by your own action), does that make you responsible for getting shot?

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If you choose to drive at 1:00 a.m. New Years day and are hit by a drunk driver, then are you responsible because you chose to drive at a dangerous time?

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DrewDad wrote:

CoastalRat wrote:
...I have stated is that I do not, and will not, feel sympathy for someone, anyone, who thru their OWN ACTIONS, places into motion events that lead to their being tortured, abused, neglected or humiliated.

I fail to see how a prisoner who broke a law (lets say stealing gum) and being in prison is responsible for the criminal actions of a guard who abuses him.

If you walk in on an armed robbery (by your own action), does that make you responsible for getting shot?

Ok, Drew, at least I think you are close to understanding my viewpoint.

The prisoner is not responsible for the criminal actions of the guard. But he did place into motion the events that led to the actions. Had he not been there he would not have been abused. He was there because he violated laws that society put in place. Thus I think I am on solid ground by not giving him my sympathy. But at the same time, I would argue for safeguards to prevent it from happening again and for punishment for the guard. But I won't feel sorry for anyone, for any reason, who breaks the laws established by society for the well being of us all.

As to your second example, we are talking about an innocent person, whose actions are within the law. While you could go to the extreme and say that their entrance into the robbery situation put events into motion that led to their wounding, I would certainly not place blame upon them and would feel sympathy for them. Now if the robbers were shot, then of course, while not being happy about it, I would have no sympathy for them.

Gosh, I hope this explains things.

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DrewDad wrote:

If you choose to drive at 1:00 a.m. New Years day and are hit by a drunk driver, then are you responsible because you chose to drive at a dangerous time?

Same basic response that I gave about the armed robbery.

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What about innocent people who are in jail? We know that people get wrongfully convicted for crimes they didn't commit. Do they deserve to get ass raped? Do they get your sympathy?

Why is innocence/guilt of one crime used as a metric for judging whether or not someone deserves to suffer another crime? Being found guilty does not make one open to committ crimes on.

You need to re-examine your moral framework on this one, CR; imagine that your brother or mother was falsely convicted of stealing something and was stabbed while in jail before you say that people in jail deserve what they get.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

What about innocent people who are in jail? We know that people get wrongfully convicted for crimes they didn't commit. Do they deserve to get ass raped? Do they get your sympathy?

Why is innocence/guilt of one crime used as a metric for judging whether or not someone deserves to suffer another crime? Being found guilty does not make one open to committ crimes on.

You need to re-examine your moral framework on this one, CR; imagine that your brother or mother was falsely convicted of stealing something and was stabbed while in jail before you say that people in jail deserve what they get.

Cycloptichorn

Cy, please, I know you are reasonable (for a non-republican Bush hater Smile

) so look at what I have written. Where have I said that anyone in jail DESERVES to suffer another crime? I have not. And for one last time, let me make myself clear again. They absolutely do not deserve it. Never, ever, ever. This whole discussion has come about because I made an off-hand comment about (paraphrasing here) not feeling sorry for the dude that got humiliated by our soldiers while being in Abu Ghraib due to stealing a car. I stand by that remark. I feel no sympathy for him.

It is a totally different story if he were innocently placed behind bars and was abused or whatever. Then he would have my sympathy.

But in all cases, the individual is not RESPONSIBLE (from a legal standpoint) nor to be blamed for the illegal actions against him. And in all cases, the perpetrator of said actions should be brought to justice (as is now happening to the soldiers at Abu Ghraib).

Please tell me you at least understand what I am getting at Cy. You don't have to agree, but at least get my point and let me know you don't see me as the monster your post makes me appear.

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I understand what you're getting at. But the punishment for any crime should fit the crime.

Stealing cars is a bad thing; the man deserved to be incarcerated. While incarcerated, unacceptable things happened to the man (on our watch, by US soldiers no less).

Though he was in prison, the actions would have been unacceptable whether he was guilty or innocent. His guilt for crime A has nothing to do with crime B.

Morally there is no difference when it comes to someone who has committed a crime and then is punished in an inappropriate manner, and someone who didn't committ a crime and is punished in an inappropriate manner. Both are deserving of your sympathy, as both have been cheated by justice - even if one is a bad person.

You say you don't feel sorry for him, but would if he was innocent. Well, he committed a crime, and was incarcerated for a period of time befitting that crime, and thus is paying his dues to society according to the standards that we have fashioned. Morally, he deserves a good ass-raping no more than an innocent man; conversely, he deserves the same amount of sympathy that you would give to an innocent man.

People don't stop being human just because they committed a crime! Many are desperate, some are stupid, many regret their actions much in the way that you and I regret the stupid things we did in our lives (and happened not to get caught, I would imagine). Sympathy for humans should not be dependent on legalities; people are people.

Just my 2 cents, and it's good to see ya on again.

Cycloptichorn

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Quote:

Where have I said that anyone in jail DESERVES to suffer another crime? I have not.

Why don't you feel sympathy for someone who receives an undeserved punishment then, CR?

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I understand what you're getting at. But the punishment for any crime should fit the crime.

Stealing cars is a bad thing; the man deserved to be incarcerated. While incarcerated, unacceptable things happened to the man (on our watch, by US soldiers no less).

Though he was in prison, the actions would have been unacceptable whether he was guilty or innocent. His guilt for crime A has nothing to do with crime B.

Morally there is no difference when it comes to someone who has committed a crime and then is punished in an inappropriate manner, and someone who didn't committ a crime and is punished in an inappropriate manner. Both are deserving of your sympathy, as both have been cheated by justice - even if one is a bad person.

You say you don't feel sorry for him, but would if he was innocent. Well, he committed a crime, and was incarcerated for a period of time befitting that crime, and thus is paying his dues to society according to the standards that we have fashioned. Morally, he deserves a good ass-raping no more than an innocent man; conversely, he deserves the same amount of sympathy that you would give to an innocent man.

People don't stop being human just because they committed a crime! Many are desperate, some are stupid, many regret their actions much in the way that you and I regret the stupid things we did in our lives (and happened not to get caught, I would imagine). Sympathy for humans should not be dependent on legalities; people are people.

Just my 2 cents, and it's good to see ya on again.

Cycloptichorn

Thanks Cy. I have been absent a while. More pointedly, I just had not bothered to post much lately. Just enjoying reading what everyone else is posting, which, after posting to this thread, maybe I should have stuck to. Laughing

You and I are actually in agreement about what you are saying. Here is I think the gist of your post.

Quote:

Well, he committed a crime, and was incarcerated for a period of time befitting that crime, and thus is paying his dues to society according to the standards that we have fashioned. Morally, he deserves a good ass-raping no more than an innocent man; conversely, he deserves the same amount of sympathy that you would give to an innocent man.

We agree that he does not deserve an ass-raping any more than anyone else does, innocent or guilty. I really do agree. And I agree that the ass-raper should be punished. The only place we differ is in the area of sympathy. I do not feel sorry for him. You choose to feel sorry for him. I choose to only feel sorry for the innocent victims. Ask me to feel sorry for the family whose car he stole and all they have to go thru. Let me feel sorry for the families of rape victims, murder victims, burglary victims and what not who have to put their lives back together because someone CHOSE to step outside the law. But I will not feel sorry about anyone who victimizes others and then claim victim status while being incarcerated.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for helping them turn their lives around so they can get out and hopefully contribute instead of destroy society, but don't ask me to feel sorry for them. Too many others deserve my sympathy. They do not.

Anyway, I think I have just about talked myself to death on this subject. I will just have to be misunderstood by the rest of A2K if these last few posts do not clarify my position. And I swear I will never make another off-hand comment again that can be twisted like this one has. At least I won't until the next time. :wink:

See ya around Cy.

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sozobe wrote:

Quote:
Where have I said that anyone in jail DESERVES to suffer another crime? I have not.

Why don't you feel sympathy for someone who receives an undeserved punishment then, CR?

I don't think I said that. Really, I don't. If we agree that by undeserved punishment you mean someone who is innocent of any crime being punished. If that is what you mean, I know I never said I would feel no sympathy for them. I have huge amounts of sympathy for anyone who is punished for what they have no guilt for.

See the just posted above explaination to Cy and maybe my position will be more clear than I have obviously been making it.

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What didn't you say? You said both.

CoastalRat wrote:

Where have I said that anyone in jail DESERVES to suffer another crime? I have not.

and

CoastalRat wrote:

This whole discussion has come about because I made an off-hand comment about (paraphrasing here) not feeling sorry for the dude that got humiliated by our soldiers while being in Abu Ghraib due to stealing a car. I stand by that remark. I feel no sympathy for him.

I'll make this simpler. Did he deserve to get "humiliated" (tortured) by our soldiers due to stealing a car?

If your answer is yes, then that's exactly what you've been denying saying thus far. (See first quote.)

If the answer is no, why don't you have any sympathy for him?

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CR, would you have sympathy for the family whose care was stolen if it was parked illegally when it was stolen?

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FreeDuck wrote:

Would you have sympathy for the family whose care was stolen if it was parked illegally when it was stolen?

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/[/color]

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Run while you can!

Cycloptichorn

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Sorry, CR, I couldn't resist.

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Hee hee..!

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CoastalRat wrote:

nimh wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I've read that some children of some president were unlawfully and drunk alcohol.

Are you suggesting we should fear that they might come and try to kill us now

No, he's saying that if the Bush girls had been arrested at the time and then raped in jail, he would not have felt sorry for them.

That is exactly what I am saying Nimh. Would they deserve to have been raped? No, of course not. But I would not feel sympathy because they were there due to their own actions.

..and you made a point crystal here:
Let's bring it closer to home.
Your daughter gets locked up in a lawless Filipino prison for a triviality...let's say being drunk and disroderly-- a legitimate punishment by their cultural and legal standards, we'll say. While in prison, she is repeatedly raped (and why not repeatedly...you get it done once, may as well keep the train going. Right?) and beaten.
Now, anyone will agree that perhaps what she experienced was excessive and uncalled for, but she was imprisoned due to her actions and must then suffer the consequences.
Would a little sympathy be in order from your fellow Americans?

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Abu Ghraib: Tortured ... over car theft

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