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Saddam, responsible for ____deaths, America for ____ deaths?

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candidone1
 
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:36 pm
But I am currently searching for comparisons between the number of Iraqi/civilian deaths under the reign of Saddam Hussein and the number of American/civilian deaths suffered at the hands of various American presidents during a similar time frame, specifically, between 1979 and 2004.

This is not for academic purposes, purely to discover a comparison between the US and Iraq, and the number of casualties incurred by either.

I know this will anger some on the right, and some in the US, and I know many will respond with value judgements regarding the purpose behind Americans/civilians dying at the hands of their government, and the purpose behind Iraqi's/civilians dying at the hands of their government, justifying former, and condemning the latter.
That is fine...it'll be part of the final dialogue anyways.

As I said...I am currently searching for this information--so members, feel free to add your two (or three) cents in the interim.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,468 • Replies: 23
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:43 pm
Just be sure you don't compare people Hussein murdered directly for political dissent with Americans who died in wars, because the two things are not comparable.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:48 pm
Your post should not anger anyone ... it definitely won't anger any on the left, and it shouldn't anger any on the right. It probably will, but it shouldn't. You have repeatedly shown your anti-American bias in the past, so it's not a surprise for you to engage in this exercise.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:48 pm
We'll discuss that later, I'm sure.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:49 pm
What exactly do you wish to compare? Hussein rounded people up and had them purposely killed. I have no knowledge of the US government rounding people up and having them killed, which is the only way to compare like incidences.

So the question becomes what do you consider US government caused deaths?
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:56 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Your post should not anger anyone ... it definitely won't anger any on the left, and it shouldn't anger any on the right. It will, but it shouldn't. You have repeatedly shown your anti-American bias in the past, so it's not a surprise for you to engage in this exercise.


Believe it or not Tico, as much as you want to stake claim to having privleged knowledge of my psyche and my opinions, I was pretty anti-Saddam Hussein when he reigned as president. I have never stated or implied that I agreed with his policies, his techniques, his rise to power, his wealth, his abuse of innocent civilians, his family etc. etc. etc.
...but I'm sure you couldn't be botherd with anything that may demonstrate commonality between the us and them that you continue to propogate.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:58 pm
candidone1 wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Your post should not anger anyone ... it definitely won't anger any on the left, and it shouldn't anger any on the right. It will, but it shouldn't. You have repeatedly shown your anti-American bias in the past, so it's not a surprise for you to engage in this exercise.


Believe it or not Tico, as much as you want to stake claim to having privleged knowledge of my psyche and my opinions, I was pretty anti-Saddam Hussein when he reigned as president. I have never stated or implied that I agreed with his policies, his techniques, his rise to power, his wealth, his abuse of innocent civilians, his family etc. etc. etc.
...but I'm sure you couldn't be botherd with anything that may demonstrate commonality between the us and them that you continue to propogate.


I stand by my prior post, the thrust of which you did not deny.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:32 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
candidone1 wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Your post should not anger anyone ... it definitely won't anger any on the left, and it shouldn't anger any on the right. It will, but it shouldn't. You have repeatedly shown your anti-American bias in the past, so it's not a surprise for you to engage in this exercise.


Believe it or not Tico, as much as you want to stake claim to having privleged knowledge of my psyche and my opinions, I was pretty anti-Saddam Hussein when he reigned as president. I have never stated or implied that I agreed with his policies, his techniques, his rise to power, his wealth, his abuse of innocent civilians, his family etc. etc. etc.
...but I'm sure you couldn't be botherd with anything that may demonstrate commonality between the us and them that you continue to propogate.


I stand by my prior post, the thrust of which you did not deny.


I did not deny it because you spoke the truth...I do have an anti-American bias, as much as I have an anti-imperialist bias, as I have an anti-despot bias, as I have a bias against those who mislead nations...and on and on.
If you were looking for a denial Tico, it won't come, and I'm not very cat and mouse with my views...but don't assume that because I'm not with the US, that I'm with the terrorists.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:39 pm
Who are you with then?
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Idaho
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 04:03 pm
This comparison seems a bit silly, honestly, but here are some numbers for you.

About 1.1 million Iraqi civilian deaths under Saddam Hussein (600,000 if you don't count the war he started with Iran), Source, between 75 and 125 per day.

Since we have been there, max of 17,285 Sourcebased not on actual body-counts but surveys of homes (as I understand it), about 27 per day.

As to American citizen deaths caused by our government in any similar fashion? I suppose if you stretch a bit you could count Ruby Ridge and Waco, for a total of 70+. I don't know an exact number (this is just from my memory of the events), but let's be generous and say 100, just for the sake of argument.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 04:34 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Who are you with then?



...cause those are the only two options right?
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 04:36 pm
CoastalRat wrote:
What exactly do you wish to compare? Hussein rounded people up and had them purposely killed. I have no knowledge of the US government rounding people up and having them killed, which is the only way to compare like incidences.

So the question becomes what do you consider US government caused deaths?


"Rounding up" civilians and killing them is different than firing a Patriot missile or "bunker buster" into a city and killing civilians?
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 04:42 pm
CoastalRat wrote:
I have no knowledge of the US government rounding people up and having them killed, which is the only way to compare like incidences.

So the question becomes what do you consider US government caused deaths?



The CIA has had a fairly well documented history of participating in covert operations that involved displacing a leader through drastic and illegitimate means.
They are American.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 06:13 pm
candidone1 wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Who are you with then?



...cause those are the only two options right?


Depends on how narrow-minded you are. I asked you an open ended-question, perhaps you'd like to answer it?
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 06:47 pm
The Reagan/Bush regim..... sorry, administration played very loose and fast with that part of the world. It was both assisting the Iraqi govt with material such as computing equipment and helicopters (civilian use only Saddam!), technology and military intelligence (drop bombs here and you'll kill people) and covertly selling weapons to the Iranians to fund Ron Al'-Reagan's favourite charities in Nicaragua and Honduras (terrorists, but good ones).

They also encouraged the Kurds and Shi'ites in Iraq's South to topple Saddam after the Gulf War. This fighting by 'proxy' helped extend the Iran-Iraq War appreciably and managed to increase the number of deaths caused by the Gulf War by turning the action against the Iraqi army into a civil war against civilians.

They'd be at least a half-million people alive today but for all this interference.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 07:51 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Who are you with then?


The Iraqi people, maybe? Poor souls. What have they done to deserve this?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 07:59 pm
msolga wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Who are you with then?


The Iraqi people, maybe? Poor souls. What have they done to deserve this?


Which Iraqi people?

The ones that had power and were killing people?
The ones that lost power and are killing people?
The ones being slaughtered by the ones that were in power?
The ones that are trying to create a free country for their children?

Which part of the Iraqi people are you with?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 08:04 pm
The ordinary, everyday, run of the mill Iraqis who have had the misfortune to be the victims of years & years of madness perpetrated by one oppressor or the other .... You know, the majority, who couldn't give a stuff about power & politics & just want to live half reasonable lives.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 08:16 pm
msolga wrote:
The ordinary, everyday, run of the mill Iraqis who have had the misfortune to be the victims of years & years of madness perpetrated by one oppressor or the other .... You know, the majority, who couldn't give a stuff about power & politics & just want to live half reasonable lives.


Fair enough, I think most people are right there with you.

What would you suggest is the best way to help those people we are with?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 08:27 pm
If only I had the perfect solution to that! Iraq is such a mess.
For starters, some binding deadline for all of us who don't belong there to get the hell out of their country & leave them alone. Bombard Iraq with aid so they can rebuild & get on with their lives. In the meantime, massive expenditure on the basics like clean water, medicine, housing ...
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