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What do the insurgents want?

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candidone1
 
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 04:07 pm
Clearly there are some Iraqis who want democracy.
Clearly there are some who do not.
Clearly there are some who loathe the American occupation to a suicidal degree.
Clearly there are some who are willing to increase the death toll on both sides of the chart at any cost.

What is it the insurgents want and how representative is it of the Arab world. Clearly they have numbers on their side, and finances to back them up.

Does anyone think that the US has bitten off more than they can chew thsi time...especially with other crises looming?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,909 • Replies: 33
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Greyfan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 06:03 pm
My guess is the insurgents are primarily baathist party members and sunnis who do not believe they will retain any influence in a representative government in a country that has been their private fiefdom for a quarter century. As this is a significant percentange of the population, their numbers (active participants and sympathizers) could be quite large.

They are being augmented by non-Iraqi Arab pan-nationalists and terrorist organizations who are more interested in the war against the Great Satin than they are in the welfare and future of the Iraqi people.

These developments were highly predictible, though, curiously, no one in the current American administration seems to have predicted it, preferring to believe nation building was a simple matter of standing aside and letting the populace's presumed love of American-style freedoms take hold.

A curious notion at a time when these same American freedoms are being challenged by an aggressive religious minority, obscene interpretations of the Geneva convention, and the so-called "Patriot" Act.

Democracies are notoriously difficult to impose from without, particularly in countrys with no experience of it; it remains to be seen whether this attempt in Iraq will take root, or leave the nation mired in factional disputes and civil war for years to come.

The only certainty is that the Bush administration will declare the mission accomplished regardless of the outcome.
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OutoftheSky
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 06:17 pm
See it from the real perspective. Lets just say.... CHina...

China attacks the U.S,. Imagine the 200million man army they posses, an occupying force to say the least. Now when these Chinese come to your home town to over take your police stations and kick down your door while you are having dinner yelling a foreign language, you don't understand, they kick you down, and rape your house and leave. Some people actually get shot when they try to stand up for their rights and thats the "price of freedom"


The insurgents are you and I. God be with them.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 06:22 pm
Who the insurgents are is in the eye of the beholder. While I don't think they're all freedom-loving patriots, I also don't think they're all the poor losers that Mr. Rumsfeld, et al., talks about.

And OutoftheSky offers food for thought, for sure, re what might happen in the U.S. under similar circumstances...
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 09:13 am
OutoftheSky wrote:
See it from the real perspective. Lets just say.... CHina...

China attacks the U.S,. Imagine the 200million man army they posses, an occupying force to say the least. Now when these Chinese come to your home town to over take your police stations and kick down your door while you are having dinner yelling a foreign language, you don't understand, they kick you down, and rape your house and leave. Some people actually get shot when they try to stand up for their rights and thats the "price of freedom"


The insurgents are you and I. God be with them.

What exactly do you mean by "rape your house?" Are you implying that the American or allied soldiers are committing literal rape? Please clarify. Also, I need to verify that you want God to be with the insurgents when they plant bombs in public places in such a way that civilians will surely die, or when they saw off the heads of living foreign civilians.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 09:41 am
As D'Artagnan points out...the composition of the insurgents is probably diverse...with people contributing according to what they see as personal grievances.

The truly sad part of this whole thing was spotlighted by Greyfan.

The incompetent, naive boobs now running our government either missed this completely...or missed it enough as to compare to completely.

This is shaping up to be a major disaster for the United States...and for the Middle East. One of the most counterproductive misadventures any nation has ever gotten into.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 10:16 am
Re: What do the insurgents want?
candidone1 wrote:

What is it the insurgents want?


They want to resubjugate Iraq. This one isn't complicated.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 10:38 am
Re: What do the insurgents want?
gungasnake wrote:
candidone1 wrote:

What is it the insurgents want?


They want to resubjugate Iraq. This one isn't complicated.


Nothing is ever "complicated" to someone who does not think carefully about complicated issues...and prefers instead to see them in terms most friendly to an agenda they might be advancing.

This insurgency is not nearly so cut and dry as you...and the pathetic Washington lot who are pretending to lead this country...want to paint it to be.

In the main, the insurgents are not stupid...they are not cowards...they are not traitors...they are not crazy...the are not anarchists...they are not a whole bunch of other things the simplistic thinkers in the Bush administration want to consider them.

You owe it to yourself, Snake, to think in more open-minded terms than they.

In any case, all indications show that one thing the insurgents are....

...is that they are going to hand our military another humiliating defeat.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:05 am
Re: What do the insurgents want?
gungasnake wrote:
candidone1 wrote:

What is it the insurgents want?


They want to resubjugate Iraq. This one isn't complicated.


Well there you have it.

I was beginning to think that a 2 year debacle in the middle east by the "most powerful, technologially advanced, ideologically sound, morally superior" democracies in the world was getting complicated.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:15 am
The insurgents want Americans out of Iraq so they can decide their own fate.

It's not an unreasonable request. You would feel the same way under occupation.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:42 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The insurgents want Americans out of Iraq so they can decide their own fate.

It's not an unreasonable request. You would feel the same way under occupation.

Cycloptichorn


...and that's why I have no qualms over empathazing with the insurgents.
If a country I despised decided to invade Canada, our puny armed forces wouldn't stand a chance. But I tell you, I wouldn't hesitate strap a bomb to my chest and run into one of their checkpoints.
0 Replies
 
OutoftheSky
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 11:54 am
I am not going to debate with some because i find it futile.

What the united states are doing is against every good GOD.

How would you feel is China or Russia started to occupy the U.S under the pretext that george bush is harming the world, and the world would be a more peaceful place without him, (which i hear all of you saying btw).

So those who think insurgents are dirty people who deserve death, then God will give you what you want but it works like a mirror, the harm and ignorant thought you have over people will be used against you.

I can only hope they fulfill removing guns out of the u.s so if there were ever a Chinese Russian invasion, you will be defenseless and they wont have to kick your door down during dinner.

If L.A was invaded by a forceful occupation like the U.S, the insurgents would be the brave brothers and fathers we have, fighting for our freedom in the streets. The gangs of L.A are already armed with multi machine guns, they will be the insurgents under an occupying force. fighting for our freedom. or atleast theirs.

The war in Iraq has killed more civilians than any TSUNAMI, yet no aid is going there, the stories of people getting shot trying to pick up the wounded on the street, tanks over bodies, kids being shot. That wasnt happening before the u.s occupation. So i would have to say the u.s brought death.

don't get me wrong, the U.s Has or had the potential to be the one country that all others looked up to and would also bring about a one world government (the good one), but since Prescott Bush's bank was seized for funding and bringing to realization of hitlers blitzkrieg that murdered Millions of good people now his grandson is running the country .. well.... nuff said.

God be with us, for we are living in the end times.

The end/beginning will come when russian and china engages war with Isreal / U.s, 1/3 of man will be slain - Revelations
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 12:14 pm
We bombed them, invaded, ejected their government (such as it was) and are now maintaining an Occupation Force... we did this upon faulty premises and with "Faulty Intelligence"...
and did it all without any formal Declaration of War.

Some call it "Imperialist subjugation", others call it "Bringing Democracy to Iraq".

?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 12:18 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The insurgents want Americans out of Iraq so they can decide their own fate.

It's not an unreasonable request. You would feel the same way under occupation.

Cycloptichorn

You are conveniently ignoring one or two facts.

1. Our occupation deposed a very brutal dictatorship which tortured and murdered its own people in order to stay in power, not a benign givernment which had been selected by or tolerated interaction by the people.

2. We are instituting free elections just so that the Iraqi can decide their own fate, but this is exactly what the insurgents don't want.

3. The insurgents use as their standard operating procedure the deliberate slaughter of innocent people. They do not merely aim at valid military targets with some unintended colateral loss of civilian life, but deliberately plant bombs in public civilian places or kidnap and murder civilians. I want to hear your justification of kidnapping civilians and sawing their heads off as they scream in agony.
0 Replies
 
OutoftheSky
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 12:52 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The insurgents want Americans out of Iraq so they can decide their own fate.

It's not an unreasonable request. You would feel the same way under occupation.

Cycloptichorn

You are conveniently ignoring one or two facts.

1. Our occupation deposed a very brutal dictatorship which tortured and murdered its own people in order to stay in power, not a benign government which had been selected by or tolerated interaction by the people.

2. We are instituting free elections just so that the Iraqi can decide their own fate, but this is exactly what the insurgents don't want.

3. The insurgents use as their standard operating procedure the deliberate slaughter of innocent people. They do not merely aim at valid military targets with some unintended collateral loss of civilian life, but deliberately plant bombs in public civilian places or kidnap and murder civilians. I want to hear your justification of kidnapping civilians and sawing their heads off as they scream in agony.




Who is sawing off heads? Do you know them? are they really who they claim to be or just a sham??

We are in WORLD WAR III and nobody wants to see it, nor will they let us see it that way. How many Jews were dying or have died as americans went about there circular lives just hearing brief flashes on their telly over a nice roast before the U.s Did anything?.

Something tells me that this all has to happen, it kinda has to happen, were beyond the place of no return, with the united states consuming
19.65 million bbl/day (2001 est.)


U.S 19.65 million bbl/day (2001 est.) pop. 281,421,906), 3,539,227 sq mi (9,166,598 sq km)

China 4.975 million bbl/day (2001 est.) pop. 1,295,000,000), 3,691,502 sq mi (9,561,000 sq km

Russia 2.595 million bbl/day (2001 est.) pop. 149,909,000), 6,591,100 sq mi (17,070,949 sq km)

Those the world top oil consumers, the 1st one is a hog considering its pewny population. China has almost 2 BILLION people states only have 280million. Russia in third. Are we friends with them? aren't they communist? aren't they friends with N.Korea? When will it enD?
The war for energy is on, we as people don't matter so much as for the importance of the survival of man everything must be done including deceiving the nations.

It's kinda like when you run over you son's puppy. You tell him that it ran off with a pack of dogs because he belongs with them and is happy now. The kid is satisfied and continues to do what he must.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 01:23 pm
Brandon90000000000 Wrote:
Quote:
You are conveniently ignoring one or two facts.

1. Our occupation deposed a very brutal dictatorship which tortured and murdered its own people in order to stay in power, not a benign givernment which had been selected by or tolerated interaction by the people.


I'm ignoring this fact? Really? What makes you think this makes a difference in the slightest? For what reason? You think they should be f*cking grateful for what we've done? Are you out of your mind?!?!

Quote:
2. We are instituting free elections just so that the Iraqi can decide their own fate, but this is exactly what the insurgents don't want.


They don't want to live in Little America. Simple as that. Many insurgents hate America because we did things like kill their women and children. YOU seem to be ignoring this fact.

Quote:
The insurgents use as their standard operating procedure the deliberate slaughter of innocent people. They do not merely aim at valid military targets with some unintended colateral loss of civilian life, but deliberately plant bombs in public civilian places or kidnap and murder civilians. I want to hear your justification of kidnapping civilians and sawing their heads off as they scream in agony.


We've killed far more innocents in Iraq than the insurgents have. Far more. And you know it. But, to you, it's justified, so it doesn't matter. It has to be done. Right?

Well, to them, it's justified. Simple as that.

You people seem to think the Iraqis are something other than one of the oldest civilizations on earth. They don't like us, and who can blame them? That's the reason for the insurgency.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:33 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Brandon90000000000 Wrote:
Quote:
You are conveniently ignoring one or two facts.

1. Our occupation deposed a very brutal dictatorship which tortured and murdered its own people in order to stay in power, not a benign givernment which had been selected by or tolerated interaction by the people.


I'm ignoring this fact? Really? What makes you think this makes a difference in the slightest? For what reason? You think they should be f*cking grateful for what we've done? Are you out of your mind?!?!

In determining how the Iraqis might feel about our actions in their country, an issue you raised, it is relevant that, as I pointed out, the government we removed was very cruel to them to the point of commonly murdering and torturing them. Don't swear in your posts. An inability to control yourself is nothing to be proud of.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
2. We are instituting free elections just so that the Iraqi can decide their own fate, but this is exactly what the insurgents don't want.


They don't want to live in Little America. Simple as that. Many insurgents hate America because we did things like kill their women and children. YOU seem to be ignoring this fact.

When you say that they don't want to live in Little America, are you referring to voting? They don't want to live in a country that allows them to have a say in their government? You do not seem to have a very high opinion of democracy. Voting doesn't make them Little America. Self-determination is a right of all people everywhere.

Most likely, the casualties caused accidentally by us, as opposed to those caused deliberately by the insurgents, are fewer than Hussein would have soon caused. He did, after all, murder about a million of his own people.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
The insurgents use as their standard operating procedure the deliberate slaughter of innocent people. They do not merely aim at valid military targets with some unintended colateral loss of civilian life, but deliberately plant bombs in public civilian places or kidnap and murder civilians. I want to hear your justification of kidnapping civilians and sawing their heads off as they scream in agony.


We've killed far more innocents in Iraq than the insurgents have. Far more. And you know it. But, to you, it's justified, so it doesn't matter. It has to be done. Right?

Well, to them, it's justified. Simple as that.

You people seem to think the Iraqis are something other than one of the oldest civilizations on earth. They don't like us, and who can blame them? That's the reason for the insurgency.

Cycloptichorn

We atttack military or governmental targets and kill civilians only by accident. For the insurgents, civilians are either the intended target, or else they simply don't care and locate bombs in public places where they are sure to kill civilians. The two things are not comparable.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:43 pm
It must bring comfort to the thousands of grieving parents who have lost children to know that their kids/husband/wife were killed by 'accident.' Your distinctions of intent and morality mean nothing in the real life situation of these Iraqis. Dead is dead, and we've killed more in the last 19 mos. than Saddam had for many, many years.

What's going on in Iraq is much more than just voting and elections; the influx of western businesses has been tremendous. Little America is where a lot of Iraqis see themselves heading, and they don't like it. There are many bad things about America as well as good things, and they certainly aren't blind to the faults of the system that we are imposing upon them. Democracy and self-determination mean nothing at the point of a gun.

As for the swearing, it's not indicative of a lack of control; I swear because I f*cking feel like it, and if you don't like it, too bad.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 02:56 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
It must bring comfort to the thousands of grieving parents who have lost children to know that their kids/husband/wife were killed by 'accident.' Your distinctions of intent and morality mean nothing in the real life situation of these Iraqis. Dead is dead, and we've killed more in the last 19 mos. than Saddam had for many, many years.

Your attempt to portray the insurgents as either admirable or acting in an understandable manner is invalid precisely because we kill noncombatant bystanders only by mistake, whereas they do it deliberately. Your attempt to represent this moral distinction as trivial says a lot about you.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
What's going on in Iraq is much more than just voting and elections; the influx of western businesses has been tremendous. Little America is where a lot of Iraqis see themselves heading, and they don't like it. There are many bad things about America as well as good things, and they certainly aren't blind to the faults of the system that we are imposing upon them. Democracy and self-determination mean nothing at the point of a gun.

My point is that giving them free elections is a good thing. No one will point a gun at them to influence who they vote for.

If there are any things that American businesses are doing that are not in Iraq's best interest, I would be willing to discuss them, but your disparaging of giving free elections to people who have lived under a very brutal tyranny, shows that you really don't care much about the right of people to chose their leaders.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
As for the swearing, it's not indicative of a lack of control; I swear because I f*cking feel like it, and if you don't like it, too bad.

Cycloptichorn

The question was never whether I could compel you to speak in a civil manner in posts, but whether swearing at those who attempt to debate you is an admirable trait.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2005 03:06 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
As for the swearing, it's not indicative of a lack of control; I swear because I f*cking feel like it, and if you don't like it, too bad.

Cycloptichorn


TOS on swearing because you feel like it...
0 Replies
 
 

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