Protecting my daughter from feminism.

Reply Tue 7 Nov, 2017 07:12 pm
Feminists live in a scary world.

They believe that women are always in danger; from walking on the street, to dating to the work place. They believe that 20% of women in college are raped (a figure that has been discredited). They tell my daughter that she is at risk of violent attack (in truth her brothers are statistically far more at risk). They tell my daughter that she is being oppressed by everyone from Beethoven to Picasso. They tell her that sex is oppression and that even her pleasure is a form of masculine abuse.

Of course there is a small amount of truth in what feminists are saying. There is harassment in the real world, and pay inequity. And so, I will teach my daughter to say "no" clearly when she doesn't want sex, and to say "yes" clearly when she does. I will teach her about the dangers of alcohol, and to be careful with the friends she chooses. And I will teach her how to use the resources available.

I will teach my daughter to be confident. I will teach her that the world is safe for her to live, to experience and to explore... as it is. I will teach her to be assertive and take advantage of opportunities as she enters the working world. And that is what I am teaching her.

As a preteen she already rides public transportation without any fear. She is learning to build healthy relationships and to accept people as equals. And she knows how to solder electronics. She has changed a headlamp on my car by herself. She codes her own webpage in HTML. She can do whatever she puts her mind to without fear. And that is what I teach her.

The biggest failure of feminism, and of modern society in general, is that we still don't know how to teach healthy adult relationships. The sexual mores of the 21st century are not that different than those of the 1950s; boys are still dangerous, girls are still seen as precious beings that need protection, sex is still frowned on. I teach my children (my sons and my daughter) that adult relationships are equal, respectful, consensual and that in a good relationship each person works to the relationship beneficial for both.

With this twisted view of relationships, these political arguments, exaggerated dangers and hyped fear, I feel the need to protect my daughter. Not from healthy sexuality, from dangers on the street or from men.

I need to protect her from feminists.
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Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2017 03:46 pm
I need to protect her from feminists.

Or, to show yourself as truly open-minded, introduce her to a few feminists and afford her both a more rounded view of them and a belief that she can make up her own mind as to whether she feels a need for protection or not.

By the way, neighing that you are going to "protect" her, places you in the realm of sexist men, which would be no better than how you view feminists. Keep in mind, many feminists are not anywhere near to how you describe them.
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2017 07:15 pm
Of course, Sturgis. My daughter knows a very diverse crowd including feminists (and devout Christians and traditional Hispanic families and a many other types of people). As a parent, I feel this is very important. Fortunately, our diverse family, where we live and the friends we have make this pretty easy.

She can go confidently and live her life knowing that her world is pretty safe for her. It should be clear that I am not going to exclude my daughter from talking to feminists. I talk to her about the ideology.

This "protection" means that I give her the tools to counter the messages that are all too pervasive; that boys are dangerous, that relationships are abuse and that women are always in danger. This doesn't mean shutting out the message. It means offering her many points of view. The protection I offer from feminism is the same protection I offer from advertising, or from predatory lending, or from politicians... I teach her to be "be aware of what they are selling".

Do you have kids, Sturgis? Do you teach them to be confident; that they don't have to live in fear? Do you teach them about what it means to have healthy respectful romantic relationships?

Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2017 02:36 pm
Thank you. I appreciate the clarification, sometimes meaning is misunderstood when just being written.

As to me, no children. That aside, I taught high school science for several years. At all times, the goal was to encourage these young folk and instill in them a belief that all things are possible. Sometimes it just takes a bit more effort or discovering how to reach the desired goal.
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2017 04:36 pm
I didn't know that you taught science, Sturgis. We share something in common.
Reply Sun 11 Feb, 2018 08:17 pm
Rather than protect her from feminists, why not teach her about self esteem?

People with truly high self esteem:
- stand up for themselves
- are more tolerant of others
- have more empathy for others
- understand what's good and bad for them
- think about the community as well as themselves


Because self esteem is essentially:
- how well you know yourself (this can't be taken away from you)
- acceptance of yourself, strengths & weaknesses included (this can't be taken away from you)
- the number of human traits that you admire that you see in yourself (so you see traits in yourself that you admire in general - this can't be taken away from you)

It is built by:
- testing and finding your principles
- then being true to them (consistency allows you to truly know you possess admirable principles),
- being genuine with others (because you accept yourself),
- taking responsibility for who you are, and where you are going; and
- hard work (it takes work to build self esteem)

When you aim for self esteem, and possess the above in yourself, others genuine criticism no longer causes the fear reaction. It is dealt with thoughtfully. When others views are expressed, it is tested against against your principles, and adopted discarded, or modified. When you meet other people with problems, understanding comes first...etc

The world doesn't necessarily need protection - it does needs a pathway for people to take towards understanding themselves, understanding others, and understanding consequences, so that it can make its own mind up.
Reply Mon 12 Feb, 2018 04:20 am
Of course I teach her about self-esteem. I can do both; protect her from feminists and teach her about self-esteem. I believe they are related.

I read about "Grace" (the woman who wrote the anonymous hit piece on Aziz Ansari) explaining why she couldn't just leave... and feminists writing about how women feel a pressure to comply. I don't want my children to have this inability to speak up for themselves. Nor, do I want them to expect that other people are responsible for figuring out what they want.

Being able to say clearly "No, I don't want that" is an important skill for my daughter and for my sons.

That is the point.

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Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2018 06:50 am
It's ironic you disparage feminism while riding the coattails of it.

You have the luxury to teach your daughter to do whatever she sets her mind to without fear. You even went as far to bold the type to ensure maximum emphasis. That emphasis came from years and years of people's hard work to change the mindset of the populous.

You talk about rape as if it's just a normal thing that happens. You discard the true fact that sexual violence for the 18-24 yr old is 3x the norm than any other type of crime. (https://www.rainn.org/statistics/campus-sexual-violence)

Feminism doesn't teach sex is oppression. Actually, feminism teaches that a woman's pleasure is just as important as a man's. Feminism does not believe women should have to sacrifice their own sexual needs in order to please a man,

You blur the lines where consent is a gray area, when boys are taught to not take "no" as an answer, to be assertive and aggressive to the point where a "no" might be turned into a "yes." Girls that do say "yes" are "slut shamed" and girls who do not are "prude shamed." That's part of the problem that needs to be addressed.

It's interesting you feel today's sexual mores are no different than the 1950's. Then, teenage pregnancy meant being a social outcast with practically no repercussions for the teenage male. Today, contraception is widely distributed and used to prevent an accidental pregnancy.

Without you knowing it, you ARE teaching your children feminist views. That's not so scary now, is it?

Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2018 07:34 am
You discard the true fact that sexual violence for the 18-24 yr old is 3x the norm than any other type of crime. (https://www.rainn.org/statistics/campus-sexual-violence)

Do you want to read the link again? See if you can see where in your haste to make a point, you misstated what you referred to as the "true fact". Facts should matter.

This is part of the point that I am making. You are defending an argument, your aim is to state that this ideology is correct. You aren't being at all careful to make sure that the facts actually say what you want them too.

There is a big distinction between feminist ideas (with which I agree in many cases) and feminist ideology. The problem with feminist ideology is that anything that fits a political narrative is accepted as truth whether the facts support it or not. I have never said that I disagree with everything that "feminism" says. I am saying I disagree with an ideology that people are inclined to accept without question.

I have no problem agreeing with feminism when it is correct (i.e. when what they are saying is logical and fact based). I want my daughter to be able to reject feminism when the ideology is more important than the facts. That is happening quite frequently.
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2018 08:21 am
You tried discredited to 20% college age rape statistic, when in fact it is, "Among undergraduate students, 23.1% of females and 5.4% of males experience rape or sexual assault through physical force, violence, or incapacitation."

I think you want to reject the word, "feminism" without actually having to defend your right to use the ideology that comes with it. That's using a double standard.
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2018 09:07 am
Ok, Neptune. You seem to be making the same mistake twice.

I am assuming by the fact that you abandoned your first claim that you accept that you misstated it. And, you went to a different "fact" that you think is safer. Did you read all of the information on the page about this statistic?

I have problem with "using the ideology" of feminism in cases where the ideology matches the facts. I have no problem picking and choosing. I like the fact that my daughter will be able to vote. I don't like the fact that some people are making outrageous claims that might make her afraid to go to college.

Go read read the page again, this time with a questioning mind... rather than one that is just trying to win an argument without much thought. When you do this... please quote the part I am talking about so I know that you are at least doing your homework.

Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2018 09:11 am
Oh, I see, your view is the only view you'll acknowledge.


Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2018 09:30 am
No Neptune, I am happy to agree with you when you say something that makes sense. I am only challenging the parts of your posts that I feel aren't supported by facts or logic.

My problem is with feminism as an ideology. Feminism pushes you to ignore any facts that challenge your pre-existing beliefs while accepting and fixating on those that support the ideology. (It is not just feminism, this is true of any ideology).

As I keep saying, I am happy to accept the parts of feminism that are logical, fact based and especially those that help my daughter. You seem to think that this is a bad thing, I don't. It is good to be able to see things from more than one point of view. I can point out ways that I believe feminism is correct (and I am happy). I can also point out ways that I think the Men's rights movement has a point. I can also point out ways that either ideology has logical problems, makes exaggeration or is completely off-base.

Critical thinking means that you look for facts that challenge your point of view rather than just those that support it. Being able to question your own beliefs is important. When I say I want to protect my daughter from feminism, I am not protecting her from equal pay or the right to vote...

... I am protecting her from feminism as an ideology that actively shuts down questioning the narrative and actively opposes any point of view that might challenge it.
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Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2018 08:24 pm
"Among undergraduate students, 23.1% of females and 5.4% of males experience rape or sexual assault through physical force, violence, or incapacitation."

Why do you believe this is true?

This is a shocking statistic. If it were true that 23% of females experience rape or sexual assault, there is no way in hell that I would send my daughter to college. I wouldn't go anywhere myself where I had a 23% chance of being raped.

You got this statistic off of an internet website (that itself warns you that it should be taken with a grain of salt). You apparently believe it without having questioned the statistic. You either haven't read the reputable sources that dispute these statistics (including researchers with no political bias) or you ignored them.

I am criticizing feminists because of their inability to question their own beliefs, and their willingness to accept any statistic that supports their narrative without looking at any information that might support another point of view.

This seems to be exactly what you are doing. I have no problem pointing out the many cases where I agree with feminists... it is their inability to accept other points of view that is the real problem.
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2018 09:02 pm
I read through this and I am a bit confused about which part of feminism you would be protecting your daughter from. Do you have a definition that you are using for feminism or a brief rundown of what it is to you?

Feminism is a broad topic. (See what I did there?)
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Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2018 09:22 pm
Please don't turn this discussion into a war about factual data. Since you made me aware maybe my source wasn't credible enough for you, there's this:

For the period 1995–2013, females ages 18 to 24 had the
highest rate of rape and sexual assault victimizations
compared to females in all other age groups. Within
the 18 to 24 age group, victims could be identified as
students enrolled in a college, university, trade school or
vocational school or as nonstudents. Among student victims,
20% of rape and sexual assault victimizations were reported
to police, compared to 32% reported among nonstudent
victims ages 18 to 24 (figure 1).
This report describes and compares the characteristics
of student and nonstudent female victims of rape and
sexual assault, the attributes of the victimization, and
the characteristics of the offender. The findings are from
the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ (BJS) National Crime
Victimization Survey (NCVS), which collects information on
nonfatal crimes reported and not reported to police against
persons age 12 or older. Rape and sexual assault are defined
by the NCVS to include completed and attempted rape,
completed and attempted sexual assault, and threats of rape

The world is a scary place. To not prepare our children of the dangers they face is irresponsible.

Yes, the burden of protection does fall on a woman to ensure her own safety. It seems you only include your daughter in these discussions.

The "feminists" say, it's about time education not only includes how women do that, but also to teach men that women's sexuality does not exist specifically for them. You said nothing about how you teach your boys.

That's the reasoning behind the ideology. It's about how to shift sole responsibility into co-responsibility, as equals not just in the world, but in the bedroom as well.

Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2018 06:50 am
Neptune, you are supporting my points nicely.

I am making two main points when I am explain why I want to protect my daughter from feminism.

1. Feminism paints the world as a scary place filled with danger.
2. Feminism is a closed ideology that discourages women from questioning or from considering other points of view.

You are doing two things.

1. You are stating "The world is a scary place."
2. You are picking data from websites that agree with you as "true facts" (that can't be questioned). You aren't entertaining any questions about your ideology, nor are you considering any other point of view.

You are basically agreeing with me. Rather than arguing that feminism is reasonable and open-minded, you are arguing that feminism should present the world as a "scary place" and to state that their political narrative represents "true facts".

Instead of googling for one sided "facts" from websites that agree with you, you should be searching for information from the other side of the argument. If you could say... "hey, the anti-feminists have a valid point here, but I don't agree with them about this and they are going too far here"... that would contradict what I am saying in this thread. Instead you are doubling down and looking only for information that supports your ideology.

There valid points made by feminists, and I can point out valid points by anti-feminists. Feminism as a movement seems to be stifling this type of open-minded critical thinking where you can question your own narrative.
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2018 07:07 am
Ok, let's not even use statistics. Can we agree that rape happens and that's a bad thing?

And as far as the world being a scary place, name one place that has not been touched by a crime at some point. Feminism isn't the only one to claim how scary these times are. Have you been in a high school lately? Shooter drills are the norm. Yep, some scary **** right there. Come on, do you really feel there isn't danger out there? Maybe it's not lurking at your doorstep but in many cases, it is.

I see you skipped over the part about teaching your boys the same concepts as your daughter. Care to discuss why that is?

Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2018 07:22 am
You are moving from the topic of this thread... but I will answer your questions.

1) Political ideologies use scare tactics on both sides. Conservatives want me to be deathly afraid of Muslim terrorist and "illegal" immigrants. Liberals want me to be afraid of Nazis and rape on campus.

The mass murder of terrorism is terrible. Rape is terrible. That doesn't mean that the political scare mongering is reasonable. It is playing on irrational fear.

2) Yes, I teach my daughter and my sons the same. I don't really understand the question you are asking. My daughter and my sons are responsible for their own happiness.. they should pursue relationships that make them happy, and they should say 'no' to relationships that don't.
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2018 07:43 am
You don't have to be as afraid of rape as a woman does. So...there's that.

What you teach your children is admirable. However, I do see a disconnect of how the sole responsibility of safety is taught to them. Again, the burden is on a woman to be always be alert to the possibility of danger whereas men don't have to be quite as diligent.

You say that feminism is the root cause of sounding that alarm. But it's always been there. Feminist teachings aren't alarmist views, it's taking reality and shifting sole responsibility into shared responsibility.


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