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Evolutionry/religious nonsense

 
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 06:08 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Including the concepts of Creationism and ID which are, indeed religion based . The only thing that messes with the 1st Amenment is when a teacher starts teaching it as FACTUL EVIDENCE BASED SCIENCE. If the teacher wishes to do that, he or she should seek a job in an ID /Creation SCience Fundamentalist parochia


I don't think it should b e taught as factual in a public school, it should be discussed as hypothetical or an alternative phlosophical theory based on the ontological origins of the information contained in all living organisms. Especially when it comes to abiogenisis,

Quote:
That makes little sense but if you are saying that the Supreme Court decisions follow the parochial school "Science program", you would be wrong. If the schools are all self supporting with no tax dollars, then you are free to say that the earth was raised up on the back of a huge turtle. I dont think parents would want to close off any career options for their kids so early in the kids life


I don't think they should exclusively follow either. We already settled that in 1968, in Epperson v. Arkansas, and
In 1981, in Segraves v. State of California, the courts ruled teaching only one view is wrong. Then Lemon came up with his biased secular only philosophical view (relativistic philosophy over common sense realism philosophy) and some how that was labeled as guaranteeing freedom of discussion in academia.

Quote:
What you call "Open to all points of view" , Ive actually seen as indoctrination with fact-free inculcation.'


Well, most people don't see it that way. Thank you for being the thought police.

Quote:
The "Open Mindedness" has resulted in creeping incorrect use of semi facts like "evolution is just a theory" without explaining what "theory" even meqns in science,


We better not teach alternative points of view because the definition of the word "theory isn't being taught perfectly everywhere?

Quote:
or evolution without a"creator"can only be seen to a micro level, or the ever popular "lifes to complex to have arisen by evolution'


Well that is an alternative logical interpretation of the evidence that should be discussed. Are you afraid of the discussion?

Quote:
Of course they did. After all, they agreed to the judicial review process. Were IT NOT for judicial review, your "open minded" IDers would probably be stifling genetic research and the teaching of biology would be based on Biblical interpretation alone.


Remember, I am one of those Roman Catholics that doesn't believe the bible can only be interpreted by the bible. I believe the Bible has to be interpreted by nature (science) and tradition. I agree with you again, that the modern Protestant position had hijacked the ID position with creationism. Leadfoot pointed out how that is changing with the Discovery Institute (which educated me).

Quote:
You dont think a huge committee of brilliant scientific minds came up with modern INTELLIGENT DESIGN did you??
It was one guy who was a lawyer , a big time supporter of "Scientific Creationism" and a hell of a salesman and fund raiser.
This guy, Phil Johnon, pretty much , changed the title "Scientific Cretionism"to Intelligent Design" with a single book "Darwin on Trial


I never read any of them. My common sense realism point of view interpretation of the evidence lead me to my conclusions. You are intelligent and so am I. Try to figure out what I know that you don't know rather than, thinking you are just smarter than me and that intelligence won't allow you to be brainwashed by people in authority. Authority has nothing to do with my scientific beliefs, being open minded does.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 06:42 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Bigoted? really? should the schools have just bent over and left the church of ID take over and lead education down the road back to Reconstruction where they taught that only white people were fully human??


That curriculum were set by elected school boards and state representatives. They were open to debate every election and at every meeting of those governing bodies. It was not the law of the land everywhere. Now by Judicial review all debate in academia is being brought to a halt. This looks more like Stalinist views rather than Jeffersonian.

Quote:
Youre balmy, this issue doesnt only infect kids minds with superstition driven worldviews about how life came about. It also , in elements of "civic Biology" preached about deeply racist "facts "


Please provide any superstitious or racist statements I have made in our discussion of the scientific and historical data. If you are going to lump me in with those groups please back it up.

Quote:
ID ers and Creation "Science" folks have dropped the racist views but only after several other de jure outcomes. And here we are still . I imagine that youd be working hard to impose a religious based biological science program , if you wouldnt be fined.
Fined for wanting to discuss alternative philosophical interpretations of historical and scientific evidence in all levels of academia. Am I living in America or Stalin's Russia. Instead fining me maybe they should send me to a desolate place in North Dakota.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 08:51 am
@brianjakub,
yeh, aint it great for science and too bad for ID???

"TEaching the Controversy" is one of the latest bullshit steps the IDers are now taking, so you wanna go one step farther and repeal Madison v Marbury eh? . I think youre gonna have to wait longer than the folks who would like to change the 2nd Amendment.

Why the hell we need a Supreme Court at all?? Theyre just a bunch of tired old fucks who wont be around to benefit from anything they do anyway.

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 09:27 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Am I living in America or Stalin's Russia. Instead fining me maybe they should send me to a desolate place in North Dakota.
You are totally ignoring the history on this subject within our country.

1. For the time of 1859 through the 1950's, Evolution was NOT ALLOWED to be taught in many states and all the Commonwealths (maybe all or most Im not sure) .(Pa was one of them even though we have a Quaker origin.)

2.It took several court cases to nullify "Scientific Creationism" and the "teaching of Creationism in science classes " followed by "establishing religious woldview based science programs "(like ID).

3All these court cases only went back to support the plaintiffs in having their Constitutional rights restored. (ALL the court cases have almost unanimously gone with the plaintiffs)

4All these cases had only to do with teaching Creationism and ID AS SCIENCE IN SCIENCE CLASSES. The decisions have all ENDORSED taching the above in survey religion courses, anthropology, or history of science , anything BUT actual science courses where the scientific method is supposedly in effect.


You call it Stalinism, I call it acquiring justice FROM Stalinism (remember in Soviet russia, Profim Lysenko was the favorite biological superhero , hand annointed by Stalin . talin declared that EVolution was not for the USSR (it changed in the 1980's when real Russian scientists were tired of being thrown into gulags for research into Wvolution)
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 09:59 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
I don't think they should exclusively follow either. We already settled that in 1968, in Epperson v. Arkansas, and
In 1981, in Segraves v. State of California, the courts ruled teaching only one view is wrong. Then Lemon came up with his biased secular only philosophical view (relativistic philosophy over common sense realism philosophy) and some how that was labeled as guaranteeing freedom of discussion in academia.


Youre using more salesmanhip than scholarship. California /Segraves had No bearing to the US (just like the Kitzmiller case only involved Fed dist 3). Segravs was jut a"fairness doctrine ruling" Epperson was one of the first USSC cases that ruled against Creationism as "Law of the land"

The Lemon test is brilliant legal thinking IMHO, wherein it removes the "Priest saying that hes an objective reviewer of public church funding" Our Constitution has taken many centuries and were still working it out.

Edwards v Aguillard seemed to settle the whole thing in my mind but that immediately led to Phil Johnson and his providing us a "new movement for an old watch".
If youre only now learning about Discovery Institute from Leadfoot, then you rwally havent been reading the several yars worth of stuff herein. Discovery comes up quite often . Of course it never comes up as an example of objective science. It more or less stands for "preaching your own special understandings even before any facts are in".
If youre happy with them, then youve made many of our points. You are certainly NOT an objective observer.

A Ive said many tims before, we dont know anything about the origin of life so panspermia is on the table but theres still no evidence one way or another. Merely using method naturalism makes the job of doing science real, not supernatural. Creationism an ID just default to supernatural stories and the science is lost forever. Teaching kids that is probably ok for the average students but the really smart ones need challenges. And you or anybody who talks like you has yet to come up with some QA means or falsifiable methods or experiments to validate your religious belief.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 10:23 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Inteligent Design attempts to explain how matter and life came into existence along with suggesting that the embedded levels of complexity are to much to overcome by random introduction of new information.
NO IT DOESNT. The Discovery Institute tries to smother up the fact that their 'Center for renewal..." was founded as a purely religious center.

Ive quoted W. DEMBSKI's (1999 statement) about how "Any of the Sciences that leave Christ out of the picture must be seen as fundamentally deficient... THATS WHAT UNDER THE DISCOVERY INSTITUTE's "WHITE LAB COAT". If you want to be belligerently ignorant plase dont keep posting **** as if its objective "reasoning on your behalf" its not. Youre selling aluminum siding , thats all.


Quote:
Darwinism does not provide an explanation for the origin of matter or life like ID does. The Darwinian process starts after abiogenisis.
Wow, took you only wht , 2 years to realize wht most of us have been saying??
However, Darwin does speak of a "warm little pond" but why is it againt his well evidenced theory that he should have included that as a area of study. The origins of life are a whole nother arena of study thats pretty much interdisciplanary. Its often included in evolutionary sciences departments of universities or even chemistry departments. SO what? Youre jut attempting to use it as a point of deficiency and therefore a reason for you to default to ID.

Besides , there are major problems with Darwin that need to be resolved (I really dont know why you dont focus moreon stuff that you can play with.)
As SET said,"all origins of life are abiogenic ".I hope you can get it down that theres a real gem of scholarship there. Probably not . It takes awy the oomph of "them v us" wehere us is the ID guys and them are the atheistic neo Darwinists.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 10:44 am
@brianjakub,
This is as close to science as we can get about evolution of life on earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_history_of_life
For those insisting on ID, they must first provide evidence of its existence. Otherwise, all they are selling is "poof" theory.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 11:51 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Inteligent Design attempts to explain how matter and life came into existence along with suggesting that the embedded levels of complexity are to much to overcome by random introduction of new information.
Oh, almost forgot, Hows all that working out for you??
All youre aying is what ID WANTS to do, not what they are doing about it. Ive asked several times, when is this explaining going to begin??
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 12:26 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
I have only provided historical and scientific evidence with a logical interpretation of that evidence to support my conclusions.
You hqve provided NO evidence unique to what youre preaching. You and LEadfoot rely upon science to discover or experiment and then you just sqy "Well thats the way ID woulda worked", yet you have no idea in hell whether that supposition is even testable with your stories.

You are efaulting everything to a GOD while science is drqwing comparisons to HOW and WHEN things occured and are finding out facts that fit the theory.
Major evolutionary jumps occur when cataclysms and environmental changes occur. EG, when Pangea's suture began to tear open from S to N (South America was not attached to N America but earlier Africa, Laurasis (N Am and Europe) and S America were attached. Theres about a 60 MY difference tween the attachement of Nam and S Am, so, almost ALL the dinosaurs that came to be were different between N and S America and the fossil dinos from Africa (and many of the plants) are more related to US, than they are to S America.. SO, all the evolution that nt on from the Trissic through the Cretaceous reflwcted environmental differences among the continent drifting apart.
Is that "Evidence" of an intelligent design??

Im not sure where you wanna wind up but I think that youre going to slowly admit that evolution was merely a response to laws of science (chem, geo, physics and bio) , unless the Intelligent designer just liked "dickin around ", so then dickin around becomes evidence to you.

Thats what I recall our own Dobby character trying to say, that the willy-nilly unpredictable train of evolution was the Designer playing around an leaving us evidence because he knew he was gonna create monkeys and then humans."This was all to plan" (as if you guys ven know what plans your dealing with)

You know how utterly dumb that all sounds to a trained scientist. Even Dan Fairbanks who is a "born again" and an evolutionary scientist and geneticist, realizes that the argument you guys cobble together are preposterously unmanageable.

I waa trained by Catholic Brothers Jesuits an Christian brothers and the Jesuits wre awfully good at defying thir orders with scientific facts. I owe my interests in science to a Russian/Polish Jesuit priest who
opened my kid eyes to the natural world and demanded nothing but the search for truth to be acceptable. That was when I still accepted the God story (although i think he did not , really) .

Catholic science teaching (at least today in Pa) really doesnt have time with religion in science. Scholarship i what they teach an Ive judged many a science fair project where the top ones were kids from Catholic Schools. They never HAD TO teach only evolution they were free to tech whqtever wqy they wnted to go. However, They , like most public schools, open the year of beginning bio with an understanding of where biology came from and what were the facts of history that drove it, (agriculture, medicine, taxonomy and husbandry). Then the year got underway with an attention to scholarship. I went to school in the 60's and saw the story of "Special Creation" as a scientific fact, disappear in all of Pa's Catholic Schools. Maybe UTAH is science unfriendly but I know tht BYU teaches science as science and not scripture. (Dont know much about the secondaries)
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 12:41 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
One judge judge that had a bias towards a "relativistic" philosophical point of view outlawed the discussion of the "common sense realism" philosophical point of view.
If your POV regrding this was followed (ie "qe should all sit down and discuss this philosophically) why then did the entire science faculty of Dover HS come out against the DOVER JOINT SCHOOL SYSTEM SCHOOLBOARD's decision to slowly start including ID into the Biology curriculum.

I dont think that you have any idea of what your talking, know that?


Federal district judges are assigned the cases. THE ID side had a very good chance to argue their case and could NOT detach themselves from religion driving the science curriculum. Like the Cal case, it was a case that affected the STATE CONSTITUTION as well as the Supreme Court. after the Dover School Board LOST in Kitzmiller, they could have taken it to a higher court. BUT THESE GUYS either just disappeared or were VOTED OUT because the citizens (even the church leaders with the exception of three FUNDAMENTALIST churches in the entire school district) were angry at how Dover became a sort of "Hillbilly joke town" for even bringin the damn case UP.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 12:53 pm
Heres to th hyena. ome more Discovery Intitute tries to connect Chas Drwin ith the eugenics movement and it was all lies, (Which is really what the Discovery Institute is built upon)

Quote:
(July 14, 1933) a sterilization law was passed in Nazi Germany, known as Gesetz zur Verhütung erbkranken Nachwuchses (Law for the Prevention of Genetically Diseased Offspring). Any German was a target if they were found to be suffering from a range of perceived hereditary ailments, such as congenital mental deficiency, schizophrenia, manic-depressive insanity, epilepsy, Huntington’s chorea, blindness, deafness, any severe hereditary deformity or even severe alcoholism. Official pronouncements insisted that these individuals were a drain on the German people, both biologically and financially (see right). The law passed on this day ultimately led to an estimated 400,000 people being involuntarily sterilized in pursuit of this national goal of “racial hygiene,” to eliminate handicapped descendants.

Creationists are fond of laying the blame for Nazi eugenics on Charles Darwin. They insist that his materialist argument that humans evolved from animals and his conception of natural selection inspired the Nazis to implement a widespread policy of artificial selection within the Fatherland. However, these claims are as baseless as was the so-called “science” that the Nazis employed.

For example, William Dembski, intelligent design creationist and co-author of Moral Darwinism, claims:

Darwin is the founder of the modern eugenics movement in all its later myriad forms, whether it is expressed through a call to weed out the unfit, breed more of the fit, abort the undesirable and deformed or manipulate our nature genetically through technology.

In nearly identical form Jonathan Wells, devotee of Unification Church founder Sun Myung Moon, writes:

Darwinism’s connection with eugenics, abortion and racism is a matter of historical record. And the record is not pretty.

Islamic creationist Harun Yahya (whom I recently interviewed from his home in Istanbul) similarly insists:

The eugenics, euthanasia, forced sterilization, concentration camps, racial purity and gas chambers of the mid-20th century emerged as a result of the Darwin-Haeckel-Hitler coalition, representing the worst and most ruthless cruelty in the history of humanity.

Taken together this would be a damning indictment, if there were actually any truth to their claims. The main connections that all three authors make between Darwinism and eugenics is that Francis Galton, an early proponent of eugenics, was Darwin’s cousin and that Ernst Haeckel, a German biologist who championed evolution and maintained a long correspondence with the English naturalist, was a primary source for Nazi eugenic policies.

The strength of their arguments quickly fall apart, however, once they are given a few moments thought. The Galton connection is quite obviously baseless, for surely no one can be held responsible for something their cousin promotes (especially since Galton didn’t even invent the term eugenics until a year after Darwin’s death).
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2018 05:35 pm
@farmerman,
I note that thi weeks NOVA is presenting a program with Robt HAzen. Hes been doing research on the "evolution of minerals on earth. He has evidence that the actual number of minerals are associated with the growth of life on earth. When the earth was first formed, there were less than 20 different minerals on the planet.

HEs a pretty good speaker. I saw him at a conference when he first came out with this hypothesis a few yers ago when he was using "big data" techniques to map minearl associations
Helloandgoodbye
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2018 04:47 am
@farmerman,
*sigh*
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2018 05:00 am
@Helloandgoodbye,
I said the same thing when I first heard of the work . Hazen is an experienced mineralogist .Being able to use the mineralogical record of when they appeared on earth wrt chronozones, its compelling evidence.
Course you have to be interested and willing to take some time and get it in your head.
Helloandgoodbye
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2018 05:40 am
@farmerman,

Has his work produced repeatable, demonstratable, and observable facts....life from non-life? Then it is not compelling at all.
*sigh*
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2018 05:50 am
Is this an example of how you "ignore" someone. I haven't "returned," because I never left. I intend to report that post as personally abusive. That's all you have left in your quiver, isn't it?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2018 07:36 am
@Helloandgoodbye,
It was about mineral assemblages. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2018 10:35 am
@farmerman,
Science is what convinced me that the christian religion was full of errors and contradictions. It was also the contradictions taught by the church; that theirs were the only "true" church founded by Ellen G White. I'm the only one in our family who is an atheist. All my siblings and their children are christians. It's their choice. The seventh day adventist church was established in 1863. It was a combination of teachings of protestant religions. If they were truly the only church, why was it established so late in religious history? It belongs in the same theory as creation vs evolution. I chose evolution.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2018 12:50 pm
Another key 'Truism" of Evolution goes down in flames. The source of mitochondria they were counting on turned out to be wrong, as a paper in Nature admitted this week.

Commentary from DI:
Quote:
With the inexorable march of science, the predictions of evolution, which evolutionists were certain of, keep turning out false. This week’s failure is the much celebrated notion that the eukaryote’s power plant — the mitochondria — shares a common ancestor with the alphaproteobacteria. A long time ago, as the story goes, that bacterial common ancestor merged with an early eukaryote cell.

And these two entities, as luck would have it, just happened to need each other. Evolution had just happened to create that early bacterium, and that early eukaryote, in such a way that they needed, and greatly benefited from, each other. And, as luck would have it again, these two entities worked together. The bacterium would just happen to produce the chemical energy needed by the eukaryote, and the eukaryote would just happen to provide needed supplies. It paved the way for multicellular life with all of its fantastic designs.

There was only one problem: the story turned out to be false.


What makes it even funnier, after they found this out they try to fob off the little fib with a totally unproven claim.

Quote:
The paper (from Nature) does, however, make a rather startling claim. The authors in Nature write:

[O]ur analyses indicate that mitochondria evolved from a proteobacterial lineage that branched off before the divergence of all sampled alphaproteobacteria.

Mitochondria evolved from a proteobacterial lineage, predating the alphaproteobacteria?

That is a startling claim because, well, simply put there is no evidence for it. The lack of evidence is exceeded only by the evolutionist’s confidence. Note the wording: “indicate.”

The evolutionist’s analyses indicate this new truth. How can the evolutionists be so sure of themselves in the absence of literally any evidence?

The answer is, because they are evolutionists. They are completely certain that evolution is true. And since evolution must be true, the mitochondria had to have evolved from somewhere. And the same is true for the alphaproteobacteria. They must have evolved from somewhere.


https://evolutionnews.org/2018/04/rewrite-the-textbooks-again-origin-of-mitochondria-blown-up/
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2018 01:43 pm
@Leadfoot,
Oo, evolution goes down in flames. Jeesis be praised.
 

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