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Evolutionry/religious nonsense

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 06:36 am
@Setanta,
But what about the argument that you carefully avoided? Again.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 10:31 am
I always get a kick as to how the IDers seem to "Settle" for what science has discovered and predicted and then they state that "This is exactly what an intelligence would do", as if they have any idea what the hell went into the discoveries .
Sounds like just a lot of Fundamental Christianity no real science invilved .
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 11:08 am
@Leadfoot,
The topic is evolution (and religious nonsense). Abiogenesis, dark matter and your other diversionary tactics are irrelevant, because evolution can only take place once life is present. How it arises is not relevant to a discussion of evolution. The entirely hypothetical issue of "dark matter" and the heat death of the cosmos is not relevant. I'm not avoiding any of your silly attempts at diversionary arguments, because they are not relevant.

Whenever you provide some irrefutable evidence for your magic sky daddy, for any kind of design, for any kind of intelligence behind said putative design, we'll have something to discuss. Until then, you're just whistling past the graveyard.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 11:09 am
@farmerman,
They must rationalize everything about science even when they contradict their own beliefs on creation. Their brain is already shaped like a pretzel that returns to their original creation bs. It's really laughable. Pretzel, anyone?
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 04:47 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
The topic is evolution (and religious nonsense). Abiogenesis, dark matter and your other diversionary tactics are irrelevant, because evolution can only take place once life is present. How it arises is not relevant to a discussion of evolution. The entirely hypothetical issue of "dark matter" and the heat death of the cosmos is not relevant. I'm not avoiding any of your silly attempts at diversionary arguments, because they are not relevant.


So, how we evolved from non living matter to living matter is not relevant because that isn't evolution? How come I am able to use the word evolution in this sentence then?

Even wiki includes the origin of life in their description of evolution and count it as relevant.
wiki
Quote:
Evolutionary history of life
PongolaHuronianCryogenianAndeanKarooQuaternaryice agesAxis scale: million years
Also see: Human timeline and Nature timeline
Main article: Evolutionary history of life
See also: Timeline of evolutionary history of life
Origin of life
Further information: Abiogenesis, Earliest known life forms, Panspermia, and RNA world hypothesis
The Earth is about 4.54 billion years old.[280][281][282] The earliest undisputed evidence of life on Earth dates from at least 3.5 billion years ago,[19][283] during the Eoarchean Era after a geological crust started to solidify following the earlier molten Hadean Eon. Microbial mat fossils have been found in 3.48 billion-year-old sandstone in Western Australia.[6][7][8] Other early physical evidence of a biogenic substance is graphite in 3.7 billion-year-old metasedimentary rocks discovered in Western Greenland[5] as well as "remains of biotic life" found in 4.1 billion-year-old rocks in Western Australia.[22][23] According to one of the researchers, "If life arose relatively quickly on Earth … then it could be common in the universe."[22]

More than 99 percent of all species, amounting to over five billion species,[284] that ever lived on Earth are estimated to be extinct.[25][26] Estimates on the number of Earth's current species range from 10 million to 14 million,[27][28] of which about 1.9 million are estimated to have been named[29] and 1.6 million documented in a central database to date,[30] leaving at least 80 percent not yet described.

Highly energetic chemistry is thought to have produced a self-replicating molecule around 4 billion years ago, and half a billion years later the last common ancestor of all life existed.[17] The current scientific consensus is that the complex biochemistry that makes up life came from simpler chemical reactions.[285] The beginning of life may have included self-replicating molecules such as RNA[286] and the assembly of simple cells.[287]
Why would you not count the origin of life in evolution except, to eliminate data that might not support your point of view.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 04:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cj, Science is very simple. It looks into the cause and effect of our environment, finds irrefutable evidence for it, then writes up a theory on what was found. In some cases, they develop a theory based on best available knowledge, and revise it as needed when they find more information. It's a very simple idea. Anyone is able to question their theory, but they must provide evidence for it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 05:06 pm
@rosborne979,
On that note, I'm glad to have lived during this generation when so much human activity and creativity has occurred. Living in the heart of the hi tech industry of the world makes living here more interesting. The smartest and brightest come here to share in their creations, and I think the iPhone is only the beginning. Apple has a visitor's center near our home, and when we pass by on that street, that building surrounded by windows is always full of people, and I think many must visit from countries far and near. It's an exciting time to be living.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 05:26 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Whenever you provide some irrefutable evidence for your magic sky daddy, for any kind of design, for any kind of intelligence behind said putative design, we'll have something to discuss. Until then, you're just whistling past the graveyard.
It would be simpler if you just confessed ignorance again instead of repeating your mantra of 'magic sky daddy'.

The bit about 'whistling past the graveyard' is very ironic though. That is what neo evolutionists are doing when they avoid the question of abiogenesis.

I now accept that you either can't or don't want to.

brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 05:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
and farmerman



quote from the very article you sited cicerone
Quote:
Current models
There is no single, generally accepted model for the origin of life. Scientists have proposed several plausible hypotheses, which share some common elements. While differing in the details, these hypotheses are based on the framework laid out by Alexander Oparin (in 1924) and by J. B. S. Haldane (in 1925), who postulated the molecular or chemical evolution theory of life.[105] According to them, the first molecules constituting the earliest cells "were synthesized under natural conditions by a slow process of molecular evolution, and these molecules then organized into the first molecular system with properties with biological order".[105] Oparin and Haldane suggested that the atmosphere of the early Earth may have been chemically reducing in nature, composed primarily of methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), water (H2O), hydrogen sulfide (H2S), carbon dioxide (CO2) or carbon monoxide (CO), and phosphate (PO43−), with molecular oxygen (O2) and ozone (O3) either rare or absent. According to later models, the atmosphere in the late Hadean period consisted largely of nitrogen (N2) and carbon dioxide, with smaller amounts of carbon monoxide, hydrogen (H2), and sulfur compounds;[106] while it did lack molecular oxygen and ozone,[107] it was not as chemically reducing as Oparin and Haldane supposed. In the atmosphere proposed by Oparin and Haldane, electrical activity can produce certain small molecules (monomers) of life, such as amino acids. The Miller–Urey experiment reported in 1953 demonstrated this.

Bernal coined the term biopoiesis in 1949 to refer to the origin of life.[108] In 1967, he suggested that it occurred in three "stages":

the origin of biological monomers
the origin of biological polymers
the evolution from molecules to cells
Bernal suggested that evolution commenced between stages 1 and 2. Bernal regarded the third stage – discovering methods by which biological reactions were incorporated behind a cell's boundary – as the most difficult. Modern work on the way that cell membranes self-assemble, and the work on micropores in various substrates may be a halfway house towards the development of independent free-living cells.[109][110][111]

The chemical processes that took place on the early Earth are called chemical evolution. Since the end of the nineteenth century, 'evolutive abiogenesis' means increasing complexity and evolution of matter from inert to living state.[112] Both Manfred Eigen and Sol Spiegelman demonstrated that evolution, including replication, variation, and natural selection, can occur in populations of molecules as well as in organisms.[51] Spiegelman took advantage of natural selection to synthesize the Spiegelman Monster, which had a genome with just 218 nucleotide bases, having deconstructively evolved from a 4500-base bacterial RNA. Eigen built on Spiegelman's work and produced a similar system further degraded to just 48 or 54 nucleotides – the minimum required for the binding of the replication enzyme.[113]

Following on from chemical evolution came the initiation of biological evolution, which led to the first cells.[51] No one has yet synthesized a "protocell" using simple components with the necessary properties of life (the so-called "bottom-up-approach"). Without such a proof-of-principle, explanations have tended to focus on chemosynthesis.[114] However, some researchers work in this field, notably Steen Rasmussen and Jack W. Szostak. Others have argued that a "top-down approach" is more feasible. One such approach, successfully attempted by Craig Venter and others at J. Craig Venter Institute, involves engineering existing prokaryotic cells with progressively fewer genes, attempting to discern at which point the most minimal requirements for life are reached.[115][116][117]

The NASA strategy on abiogenesis states that it is necessary to identify interactions, intermediary structures and functions, energy sources, and environmental factors that contributed to the diversity, selection, and replication of evolvable macromolecular systems.[118] Emphasis must continue to map the chemical landscape of potential primordial informational polymers. The advent of polymers that could replicate, store genetic information, and exhibit properties subject to selection likely was a critical step in the emergence of prebiotic chemical evolution.[118]


Sometimes I wonder if you actually read the links you provide. If you will read the part in bold face you will realize that they render the rest of the article as a bunch of rhetoric that draws conclusions without any supporting data beyond pure speculation. And by definition believing something on pure speculation is believing something on faith and faith alone,

In the first bold faced quote they say people have provided plausible hypotheses but, in the second boldfaced quote they say nobody has been able to replicate these hypothesis. To be plausible the hypothesis needs to be probable. If we can't replicate any of the hypothesis for abiogensis using our intelligence, how could nature replicate it with no intelligence. The data suggests that to replicate abiogenisis it takes more intelligence and/or greater physical abilities than we have, not less. Otherwise, we should have been successful at replicating abiogenisis. Wouldn't you agree? If you don't agree could you explain why my assumption isn't logical.

Even NASA is trying to use human intelligence to identify a very complex system because they know, "it is necessary to identify interactions, intermediary structures and functions, energy sources, and environmental factors that contributed to the diversity, selection, and replication of evolvable macromolecular systems.[118] Emphasis must continue to map the chemical landscape of potential primordial informational polymers. The advent of polymers that could replicate, store genetic information, and exhibit properties subject to selection likely was a critical step in the emergence of prebiotic chemical evolution".

Now there's NASA stating the obvious. How big of a brick do they need to hit us over the head with suggesting that maybe it takes more than luck for that paragraph to happen.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 05:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Science is very simple. It looks into the cause and effect of our environment, finds irrefutable evidence for it, then writes up a theory on what was found.
Irrefutable evidence? Are you sure you know what science is?

But it's funny that your statement here is exactly what the neo evolutionists accuse ID advocates of doing.

Keep 'em coming CI.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 05:36 pm
@Leadfoot,
I kind of like the term "magic sky daddy". Really, kind of a descriptive name for the type of person that has the characteristics necessary to make abiogenisis happen in our universe.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 05:45 pm
@brianjakub,
Yes, it is a bit like the Biblical "Abba Father" which is the Greek expression for 'Dear Daddy', the most intimate and fond greeting for one's father.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 06:05 pm
@brianjakub,
theres nothing youve clipped that I hvent been preaching for these many years.
We agree that none hqs developed a evidenced theory of the origin events on this planet. (There were actually 2 separate events of early life not "Taking" in the Flinders Hills area. Just like there are 3 separate suture elements of serpentinites along the E coast of US (corresponding to ages of upwelling).


All our hypotheses DO NOT default to a sky daddy, mostly because we hqve wqy of tudying the heck out of event via presumed naturqlim.
If you really hqve a way to provide QNY evidence of an ID (omething like pansprmi i actually within a relm of possibility that we will find evidence, all we need to do is get samples from other rocks for analyses.

I hve no idea how we would ever begin an investigation for an ID without q totql default.

All the IDesr here hve been doing is repeating a mantra about"Too complex for naturalistic means"

Im used to guys like these(what our departed friend kept calling IDiots) ignoring what I say because its difficult to think about what we need to know NEXT in a universal quest and it requires a working knowledge in more than one field.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 08:45 pm
@farmerman,
If you want to find evidence of intelligent design you half to look for evidence of a designer that fits the characteristics Of someone who could create matter from nothing and, who can turn that matter into living matter. Also, you need to look for somebody that existed before matter exisred and doesn't need matter to exist. I would start by looking for somebody that claims to have those characteristics. And then if you find somebody who claims to be that person, I would try to find out if he's a liar or a nut case. If he is neither I would say it is safe to assume you found him.

Is there any evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ was not real person? Is there any evidence to suggest that he was a liar or insane? Is there any evidence that suggests Jesus Christ is not the person that turned God the father's ideas about the universe into the reality we are experiencing? Does the story told in the Bible that the fossil record and what we know about cosmology and science? I am sure it does but if you can come up with an example of where it doesn't provide it
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 09:29 pm
@Leadfoot,
Babbling about abiogenesis is just your insistence on a diversionary ploy. How life arose is not relevant to a discussion of evolution. Evolution can only take place when life is present--how it got there has nothing to do with the topic. I have no idea what you mean by "neo-evolutionists" and don't care. You have no evidence, so you just resort to diversionary tactics and babble. No one has to disprove your goofy thesis--you have the burden of proof and you fail miserably, as usual.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 09:34 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:
If you want to find evidence of intelligent design you half to look for evidence of a designer that fits the characteristics Of someone who could create matter from nothing and, who can turn that matter into living matter.


This is the essential fallacy of the IDiot position. It assumes a design and an intelligence, and then attempts to shoehorn any evidence there is into that assumption. It is question-begging on a grand scale, and is not in the least a rational process of reviewing the evidence and providing an hypothesis or a theory which explains all of the evidence.

Tediously, once again, evolution cannot take place until life is present. How it got here is irrelevant.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 09:39 pm
@Setanta,
Precisely! What we have, and know today, is that evolution has been proven with evidence beginning with Charles Darwin's finches. The environment has an impact on all living things. That's the only way some organisms survive. Being able to adapt to the environment is necessary for survival.
It has nothing to do with ID. It's adaptation or die.
What's interesting about gods and survival is that everybody within the catastrophe is affected. It doesn't matter whether you are a christian, buddhist, muslim, or anything else. No gods are involved; it's simple nature. During war, religious belief doesn't matter. Especially today with the atomic bomb.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 10:07 pm
@Setanta,
Well at least I try to get the evidence to fit instead of saying we don't need evidence because anything that happened before Abiogenisis doesn't matter. You are ignoring most of the history of science
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 10:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Why don't you answer the questions about your week he called on Abiogenisis?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2018 10:09 pm
@brianjakub,
How is set ignoring the history of science?
 

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