Evolutionry/religious nonsense

Too many gods for my blood. They are all equally devoted and praised.

Yes. 'Self' is largely a social entity and different cultures have differentially evoked their respective gods as catalysts for their group worldview. Its a vestige of the tribalism we inherit as primates coupled with a veneer of 'divine rationality'.

It is not pseudo. Though maybe it should be worded "complex order from no order".



There was always something. So, the creator is "the always something that can think", that put order in "the always something" that didn't have order but is capable of storing it. In other words matter is just pieces of empty space that are spinning a certain way and arranged a certain way so as to physically store information as energy stored in an orderly way.

We cannot create that order (matter) today. We have never observed it being created. We can only observe the matter that is here now, rearrange it, and speculate on where it originally came from. But, every time we observe matter being rearranged into something new it either takes our intelligence, or an algorithm (in living matter or inorganic matter) that is programmed for the purpose of creating things.



Why is that more elegant? Is that a scientific analysis of the facts? It doesn't make sense to say, "the intelligence being that is needed to think up all the information stored as order in the matter in the universe which, then give life to that matter so we can live and observe it, is just a figment of the "living matter's" imagination that it created. Your timeline doesn't make sense plus, it doesn't explain anything about the origins of the information stored as order in matter and the algorithms that it is operating in organic and non organic systems.

Is your ego playing into that statement? It does make man (the most intelligent living algorithm) higher than God by, making the creator of the organic algorithm a figment of the living algorithm's imagination. I suppose someday if machines obtain intelligence, kill us off and rule the world they won't give us credit for creating them and forget we ever existed (as their creators anyway).

It's a vestige of family and community we needed to survive in a world of anarchy before there was civilization, governments and Christianity. What tribe do you belong to? I am a child of God, the universal tribe that we all belong to.(whether we know and believe it or not)

bj, There is no "complex order." It's all nature or "natural" based on the environment.

Could you expand on that? It appears to me that a lot of complex things have To Happen every day so you can survive

The earplugs are working well !
I might challenge you to define 'order' without involving psychological constructs like 'time', but the ensuing mental wrestling on your part would be as contrived as TV wrestling itself ! So I am content to leave you with your comfort blanket as supplied to 'God's Children'.

BTW Have a good look at that phrase you just used '...it appears to me...
and compare with statements such as this from a physicist:

How can you tell the difference between Atoms if you don't use time to measure frequency. Measuring frequency is how the mind compares things and tells one piece of matter from another. And then the comparisons allows us to build patterns which our mind recognizes As information. Time and the information are there whether we recognize it or not.

Sorry, but having cited the first level of meaurement as 'nominal' (aka 'naming' aka 'counting one of') and having explained how 'naming' is the functional focusing of attention using human words, I have deconstructed your level of analysis. There are no 'atoms' per se, there are repetitive interactions of observer and observed denoted by the word 'atoms'. Aspects of repetition are given the name 'patterns'. We are pattern seeking creatures using language (words) in our attempts to predict and control our interactions. 'Information' is defined as 'that which allows us to decide between alternative courses of action'. It is meaningless without those potential actions. 'Time' is the local construct in which we sequence our interactions. It is not 'there' without those interactions.
The key issue is whether what we call 'existence' is relative or 'absolute'. Religionists, by dfinition, go for the latter.

... he said, as he typed on his 'all natural' computer, linked to an 'all natural' internet...

you should listen to Robert Hazen's discussion about the co-evolution of the mineral and biological contents of the planet.

The "great oxidation event" that occured about 2.4 BYa. was NOT due to the reduction of CO2 by Photosynthesis but by a reduction in the ratio of CO2/O2 by decreasing plnetary vulcanism. .
The evidence of the types of advanced mineralization can still be seen today, there are many minerals that are still forming as a result of human waste production and fire oxidation.

The "G. O. E." had always been assigned to the growth of photosynthesis. ctually photosynthesis II REQUIRES OXYGEN for plants to "rest and relax" so photosynthesis was an actual product of reduction of CO2 by H2S (Hoever, in the pre 2.8 BY, such reduction was not enough to increase the ratio of O2 to Co2). Intead, as the decreased vulcanism left its evidentiary tracks by radionuclide analyses of disintegrations in volcanic zircons, we could measure and date the actual date of this GOE and the then rapid rise in Photosynthetic plants and , ultimately, the oxidation of Calcium nd formation of Ca Co3 , which ushred in, by virtue of xcess P and CCO3, the "Cambrian rapid burn. It really wasnt a Cambrian "explosion of life" but a sputtering fuse-burn to a full complement of phyla within the Cambrian through Triassic periods , (this included birds and earliest mammal classes).

Like I've said, the history of the planet whether via ID or nature is indistinguishable.

It's either good design or luck.

I'm more interested in Roger Penrose's angle. He says the brain can't possibly do what it appears to do. (and Penrose is on 'your' side)

wanna explain what youre talking about wrt Penrose. Does he say that science has proven that bumblebees cannot fly, they zip along on Apis flatus.

Here's a snippet from a Phys.org on what Penrose is looking at. Interesting stuff, might be right or wrong but it doesn't look compatible with current science on abiogenesis or evolution.

That says nothing incompatible with contemporary science with regard to evolution. There is no contemporary theory on abiogenesis. The term, created by Thomas Huxley, means life arising from inorganic substances. It is however, a meaningless term. Even if it were your magic sky daddy "creating" life, there was no life and then there was life--so it would be abiogenesis no matter what the agency.

I think Huxleys speech was the first time the terms abiogenesis v biogenesis were presented to an Academy. Never thought of it that abiogenesis would cover everybody's "working model" no matter what we call it. "Spontaneous Generation" was the working model of science of the time and Id think it was rather embarrasing to maintain that the origin of life was due to putrefaction and nobody ever said"putrefaction of what"??

Quantum Anything is always hot. They have Pat's Quantum Cheesesteaks down at U Penn, because two opposing physical states of melted cheese are attained with the cheeze whiz sauce . Nobody's published anything yet, we just eat the sammich and marvel at the term of physics. Tell ya I hqve no idea what hes talking about, and my level of interests dont allow me to get all wired up. So, carry on and if it makes your case, please report it here.

That section of an abstract has nothing to saqy about evolution nor abiogenesis. LF and BJ both have been skating on zero evidence for any design or any intelligence behind it. It is incredible to me that LF thinks that little snippet has anything to do with those topics. Really, there's more BS here than you find in a Nebraska feedlot.

What really cracked me up was when BJ claimed that christianity helped advanced human progress. Christianity has now been dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 18th century. They have opposed every advance of scientific knowledge for the last 2000 years. Humanity has advanced despite christianity, not because of it. This ID BS is a prime example of the god-botherers fighting in the last ditch.