farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 08:43 am
@OmSigDAVID,
DAVE. The event that occured on Oct 2 2006 was recounted (WRT the Amish response) in the Wiki article. It was done in a manner that pretty much explains how the entire Amish community acted and , by their action, resulted in the "teaching moment" I was referring to earlier.

Heres the summary of the Amish Communities response. Hope this helps youre lawyerly mind to understand.

Quote:
On the day of the shooting, a grandfather of one of the murdered Amish girls was heard warning some young relatives not to hate the killer, saying, "We must not think evil of this man."[17] Another Amish father noted, "He had a mother and a wife and a soul and now he's standing before a just God."[18]

Jack Meyer, a member of the Brethren community living near the Amish in Lancaster County, explained: "I don't think there's anybody here that wants to do anything but forgive and not only reach out to those who have suffered a loss in that way but to reach out to the family of the man who committed these acts."[17]

A Roberts family spokesman said an Amish neighbor comforted the Roberts family hours after the shooting and extended forgiveness to them.[19] Amish community members visited and comforted Roberts' widow, parents, and parents-in-law. One Amish man held Roberts' sobbing father in his arms, reportedly for as long as an hour, to comfort him.[20] The Amish have also set up a charitable fund for the family of the shooter.[21] About 30 members of the Amish community attended Roberts' funeral,[20] and Marie Roberts, the widow of the killer, was one of the few outsiders invited to the funeral of one of the victims.[22] Marie Roberts wrote an open letter to her Amish neighbors thanking them for their forgiveness, grace, and mercy. She wrote, "Your love for our family has helped to provide the healing we so desperately need. Gifts you've given have touched our hearts in a way no words can describe. Your compassion has reached beyond our family, beyond our community, and is changing our world, and for this we sincerely thank you."[


Reaching out and helping the entire family of the shooter, is something that reinforced a lesson that "we often have to work hard at forgiveness and reconciliation, even when its most dificult"
The Amish who lost their little girls were some of the first people to embrace the immediate family of the killer (his wife, kids, and parents that were living locally). From your tone of incredulity, you seem to imply "whats so difficult about that?".
maybe youre right but, Im always amazed at how , were my kids harmed by someone (even though the perp commits suicide, Id certainly have a hard time befirending the families of the killer. The Amish responses, almost as if it were a "no brainer" to them, makes them rise several notches in the humanity scale IMHO.



Ive been following Arella Mae's travails with her new pregnant mare and was reminded of a neighbor who has a small herd of dray horses (Perch's and Belgians) LAst year one of the Belgian mares was due sometime in the spring and my neighbor needed to board her for a short period so she could have her privacy and she be kept from exposure to any accidents or infectious agents. SO, an AMishman who lives closest to my neighbor opened his back barn and stable to keep the darft horse until she delivered. (It was a period of about 2 weeks). When the horse delivered her foal and my neighbor took the two back to his place, he attempted to pay the AMishman for his space, feed , and time that his family spent keeping tabs and watching over the horse.(This included the social skills that horse people impart to keep their animals free from fretting while they sit and wait)
Horses can get nervous and can inadvertantly do damage to their surroundings and themselves if theyre not kept calm.
To make it short, the MAishman didnt consider accepting any recompense even though a normal fee for boarding horses can run at least 500$ a month for minimal services. My neighbors horse got the royal treatment and every AMishman from a few miles around made the horse part of their daily concern . The coffee pot ws always on (even though AMish coffee is probably the worst in the world).
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 09:29 am
Thanks, farmer.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:17 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
DAVE. The event that occured on Oct 2 2006
was recounted (WRT the Amish response) in the Wiki article.
It was done in a manner that pretty much explains how the entire
Amish community acted and , by their action, resulted in
the "teaching moment" I was referring to earlier.
I fully understood what u had in mind qua the "teaching moment".
What I did NOT understand
was your intriguing, fascinating ideas concerning misdirected anger
(toward innocent relatives or non-complicit neighbors of the bad guy).

I ALSO did not understand the mental dynamics of "collective guilt"
inasmuch as I can understand guilt ONLY as an active regret
for not having done something BETTER than one did it.
To MY understanding, that can occur only as to some narrowly specific event,
with reference to which one has acted improperly or neglected to act (in one 's own perception).






farmerman wrote:
Heres the summary of the Amish Communities response.
Hope this helps youre lawyerly mind to understand.
Quote:
On the day of the shooting, a grandfather of one of the murdered Amish girls was heard warning some young relatives not to hate the killer, saying, "We must not think evil of this man."[17] Another Amish father noted, "He had a mother and a wife and a soul and now he's standing before a just God."[18]

Jack Meyer, a member of the Brethren community living near the Amish in Lancaster County, explained: "I don't think there's anybody here that wants to do anything but forgive and not only reach out to those who have suffered a loss in that way but to reach out to the family of the man who committed these acts."[17]

A Roberts family spokesman said an Amish neighbor comforted the Roberts family hours after the shooting and extended forgiveness to them.[19] Amish community members visited and comforted Roberts' widow, parents, and parents-in-law. One Amish man held Roberts' sobbing father in his arms, reportedly for as long as an hour, to comfort him.[20] The Amish have also set up a charitable fund for the family of the shooter.[21] About 30 members of the Amish community attended Roberts' funeral,[20] and Marie Roberts, the widow of the killer, was one of the few outsiders invited to the funeral of one of the victims.[22] Marie Roberts wrote an open letter to her Amish neighbors thanking them for their forgiveness, grace, and mercy. She wrote, "Your love for our family has helped to provide the healing we so desperately need. Gifts you've given have touched our hearts in a way no words can describe. Your compassion has reached beyond our family, beyond our community, and is changing our world, and for this we sincerely thank you."




farmerman wrote:
Reaching out and helping the entire family of the shooter,
is something that reinforced a lesson that "we often have to work hard
at forgiveness and reconciliation, even when its most dificult"
The Amish who lost their little girls were some of the first people
to embrace the immediate family of the killer (his wife, kids,
and parents that were living locally).
The Amish r unique in this, taking the initiative as thay did.
I cannot relate any personal experience of mine to that.






farmerman wrote:
From your tone of incredulity,
you seem to imply "whats so difficult about that?".
I am not incredulous; I have not and do not challenge their veracity.
I freely accept that thay do indeed act as u have represented.




farmerman wrote:
maybe youre right but, Im always amazed at how, were my kids harmed
by someone (even though the perp commits suicide, Id certainly
have a hard time befirending the families of the killer.
With all respect, I don 't understand the reasoning of that.
There is no offense in being related genetically (or by marriage) to a bad guy.
That coud happen to any of us. I have borne no ill will toward Stalin's mom, nor toward Eva Braun.
I was befriended by a family who mentioned that thay had a relative
who had murdered several folks and who was killed for it.
To me, that made no difference; an interesting historical note.
(I don 't think thay had "collective guilt" but I coud be rong; I did not ask them that.)





Quote:
The Amish responses, almost as if it were a "no brainer" to them,
makes them rise several notches in the humanity scale IMHO.
I hold them in hi esteem. Thay r nice, gentle people.
I love to buy baked goodies from their ladies
at their roadside stands in the summer.



farmerman wrote:
Ive been following Arella Mae's travails with her new pregnant mare
I have also.




farmerman wrote:
and was reminded of a neighbor who has a small herd of dray horses (Perch's and Belgians) LAst year one of the Belgian mares was due sometime in the spring and my neighbor needed to board her for a short period so she could have her privacy and she be kept from exposure to any accidents or infectious agents. SO, an AMishman who lives closest to my neighbor opened his back barn and stable to keep the darft horse until she delivered. (It was a period of about 2 weeks). When the horse delivered her foal and my neighbor took the two back to his place, he attempted to pay the AMishman for his space, feed , and time that his family spent keeping tabs and watching over the horse.(This included the social skills that horse people impart to keep their animals free from fretting while they sit and wait)
Horses can get nervous and can inadvertantly do damage to their surroundings and themselves if theyre not kept calm.
To make it short, the MAishman didnt consider accepting any recompense even though a normal fee for boarding horses can run at least 500$ a month for minimal services. My neighbors horse got the royal treatment and every AMishman from a few miles around made the horse part of their daily concern . The coffee pot ws always on (even though AMish coffee is probably the worst in the world).
Thay were very kind.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:15 pm
Surprised A neighbourhood first!: TinTin knocked on my door just now to let me know that they'd be having a barbecue with a few friends tonight. And if they make too much noise to let them know. Even told me the approximate time it'd be over!
I'm astonished! Consideration. This is going to take some getting used to!
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:31 pm
@msolga,
every time you mention tin tin, I see a german shepherd...

I have folks movin' in across the road, in the house I thought was under foreclosure. (the truth will arise, it's a very small mind...I mean town)

these are people I already kinda know. they had me look at a crapavan once, but couldn't afford to have it worked on at the time.

nice enough, quiet kinda poor folks.

much better'n the loud obnoxious wife-basher used to reside there...
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:46 pm
@Rockhead,
Smile

No, no, not Rin Tin Tin, Tin Tin! Ha!
This is my neighbour. The sweet, innocent looking one.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/07/18/tintin_wideweb__470x321,0.jpg

Quote:
nice enough, quiet kinda poor folks.

much better'n the loud obnoxious wife-basher used to reside there.


I'd have them any day, Rocky, compared to edgar or dp's neighbours.

I would have chosen them any day over my previous neighbours. (Spawns of Satan, as Setanta would say! Laughing )

Nice to know what to expect, isn't it?

This sounds promising! Very Happy

Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:48 pm
@msolga,
I think that's some kinda schnauzer mix...

not sure... Confused
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:51 pm
@Rockhead,
You know which one, come on!

Though TinTin's dog is pretty good, too!

Wouldn't mind that one for a neighbour, either! Very Happy
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:55 pm
@msolga,
truth be told, msO, I'm prolly the spawn of satan one in my neighborhood.




(i know, that's hard to swallow, but...)
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:57 pm
@Rockhead,
That is pretty hard to swallow, Rocky.

And I think you're telling fibs.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:01 am
@msolga,
you gotta picture the quiet inbred countryside I call home.

and I'm not married.

and I got no girlfriend.

and long hair.

and play evil music at all hours out in that damned noisy shop.

anyways,

some of 'em know better. (like barney fife...)


ohh... and a hot rod pick-up truck that always runs, with a devil head on the antenna mast. Shocked Cool
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:15 am
@Rockhead,
I can see how you would be a Person Of Suspicion, Rocky. Yes I can! Very Happy

I grew up in a small country town. I know there are all sorts of really good community aspects to them. But I would never live in one again. For those sorts of reasons. Privacy is really important to me.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:20 am
@msolga,
me too.

gotta remember, like Dave says, we all gots guns.

the important folks in town know what I'm about.

and they rest of them, they think so, but we all mostly do our own thing.

and my thing is fixing broken cars, so sooner or later, most of them will get a chance to see what's really inside the shop.

for a price, of course...
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:24 am
@Rockhead,
Thank the goddess for cars needing fixing, Rocky! Wink
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:33 am
@msolga,
Tin Tin and Kevin Rudd...twins parted at birth.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:39 am
@dlowan,
I know! Laughing

But a very much junior version!

This is funny, I just heard TT & K talking to their barbecuing friends in the backyard. (Over-hearing is anavoidadble when people talk loud). They were complaining like crazy about their previous neighbours! He was violent. Calling the police constantly. Terrible noises of brutality in the night!

So maybe, just maybe, they as as relieved to have me as a neighbour, as I am to have them? Very Happy
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:46 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

I know! Laughing



So maybe, just maybe, they as as relieved to have me as a neighbour, as I am to have them? Very Happy


Well, sure...but you stand on your own feet as a good neighbour, I avow.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:49 am
@dlowan,
It is never safe to say that, you know, till you've actually had the actual experience! Smile Wink

Seriously.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:55 am
What about you & your neighbours, Deb?

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:57 am
@msolga,
(You don't have to, if you don't wanna, OK?)
0 Replies
 
 

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