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Wed 29 Dec, 2004 12:47 pm
Yamamoto was American-educated, and Morgenthau had gotten to him . . . he completely duped the Imperial Navy's First Bureau of the Naval General Staff, Uchida, Ugaki, Genda, Fuchida, Nagumo, and all of the officers--especially the flying officers--of the First Air Fleet, into believing that he believed that the only way to conduct the Southern Operation while removing the American threat from the flank of the Imperial Navy was by destroying the American Pacific Fleet at its moorings, in one massive attack. Obviously, he did not mean for the plan to succeed, as there were no further attacks after the initial, two-wave attack was sent in. If Nagumo was a patsy once, he was continually a patsy . . .
Halsey was at sea with a carrier, two heavies, two light cruisers and numerous destoyers, and he went to full, wartime general quarters shortly after leaving Pearl, and long before it was even reasonable to suggest his aircraft could reach Wake, his destination. He was hip to that jive . . .
The evil Dutchman in the White House sent the November 26th "War Warning" message to Kimmel and Short, without any confirmation that they confirmed receipt, because he knew that they would believe that he believed that the Imperial Navy would not attack without a declaration of war, and so they (Kimmel and Short) wouldn't really have to make a realistic assessment of the threat and respond accordingly.
Because, of course, Walter Short was in on the the scam, which explains perfectly why he cooked up the "fifth columnist" song and dance to justity parking all of his pursuit aircraft in clusters in the center of the airfields, while putting all of the AA ammo under lock and key--key, perhaps, to be found on the key-ring of the duty officer.
And because, of course, Husband Kimmel was in on the scam, which explains perfectly why he ignored the Martin-Bellinger report and its implication for Bellinger's Patrol Wing Two; and explains why U.S.S. Blue's submarine contact and ASW attack reports were ignored; and why there was no liaison established between COMPAC and the United States Army Air Force OOD . . .
Because even that SOB was in on the scam, explaining why he not only ignored the mobile radar reports on the morning of December 7th (local) of large numbers of aircraft approaching from the north, but he actually told the operators that there was a flight of B-17's expected from Los Angeles (which is east of Hawaii, n'est-ce pas, Bubba?), and ordered them to pack up and come back to the barn.
Because, of course, Knox and Marshall were in on the scam, and of course Turner (who got himself a plum command job right after the débacle), along with all the responsible officers of BuNavOps and ONI, as well as the ranking members of the USAAF staff . . . i mean, anybody who doesn't know that Hull and the whole lot of them were in Rosenfelt's hip pocket is like, smokin' that wacky weed, eh?
MAJOR REVISIONIST TEXTS ON PEARL HARBOR:
Beard, Charles A., President Roosevelt and the Coming of the War 1941
Chamberlain, William Henry, America's Second Crusade
Flynn, John T., The Roosevelt Myth
Morgenstern, George, Pearl Harbor: The Story of the Secret War
Sanborn, Frederic R., Design for War
Tansill, Charles C., Backdoor to War
Theobald, Robert A., The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor
And last and never least . . .
Barnes, Henry E., Editor, Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace and The Court Historians Versus Revisionism
Finally, the truth shall set you free . . .
THE OFFICIAL INVESTIGATIONS
(The Chair of each investigation follows its description.)
Roberts Commission, 12/22/41--1/23/42, Associate Justice Owen Roberts, USSC.
Hart Inquiry, 2/22/44--6/15/44, Admiral Thomas Hart, USN (Ret.)
Army Pearl Harbor Board, 7/20/44--10/20/44, Lt. General George Grunert (President of the Board)
Navy Court of Inquiry, 7/24/44--10/19/44, Admiral Orin Murfin USN (Ret.) (President of the Court)
Hewitt Investigation, 5/15/45-7/11/45, Vice Admiral H. Kent Hewitt
Clausen Investigation, 11/23/44--912/45, Major Henry C. Clausen, USA, Investigator
Clarke Investigation, 9/14-12/44 and 7/13/45--8/4/45, Colonel Carter Clarke, USA
Joint Committee of Congress, 11/14/45--7/15/46, Alben W. Barkley, United States Senate (Kentucky)
(Able2know is not responsible for any opinions or content in this thread, and cannot be construed to endorse any portion thereof . . . and i ain't so sure of it my own self. When ingesting even small doses of conspiracy theory, please follow a physicians course of treatment, and ask your local historian for some clues on developing perspective and exercising historiographic judgment. Make up your own mind, don't read somebody's book--or thread--and take it for gospel.)
(Edited because Our Helen is a better editor than i am, and after all those previews and revisions . . . damn . . . )
Uchida, Ugaki, Genda, Fuchida, Nagumo, now I'm pretty sure that's all sushi. You did know that JFK didn't actually die from a gunshot wound, it was a bad piece of fugu he ate moments before the gunfire. The neurotoxins kicked in, and then, he was a sitting duck. The person seen running from the "grassy knoll" was the delivery man. He knew his shame would bring on the wrath of his masters, who would have forced him to commit seppuku on the spot. He was frightened, he ran. It's true, oh yes, it's true. I read it on a blog, so it must be gospel.
What's really funny here is that the Japanese Imperial Navy names are spelled correctly but Morgenthau's isn't.
Setanta - you know that Adm. Kimmel and Gen. Short were posthumously exonerated, don't you? There's no reference to the related hearings in your bibliography.
Sorry, Boss, if you can dig that up, i'd be obliged . . .
Also, see, Kimmel, Husband E., Admiral Kimmel's Story
I know of no comparable document from Walter Short.
I'll be back with the info on Kimmel, not sure about finding info re Short quickly. Nice to see you again!
HofT wrote:I'll be back with the info on Kimmel, not sure about finding info re Short quickly. Nice to see you again!
Howzya, Boss . . .
My favorite:
The Naval War of 1812, Theodore Roosevelt, Jr., New York, 1881 (?). The definitive text--Roosevelt was contacted to provide the account of this war when the Royal Navy were preparing their history of the Royal Navy, 1890's, although i don't recall the exact date.
Zap!
"It is the sense of Congress that--
(1) the late Rear Admiral Husband E. Kimmel performed his duties as Commander in Chief, United States Pacific Fleet, competently and professionally, and, therefore, the losses incurred by the United States in the attacks on the naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and other targets on the island of Oahu, Hawaii, on December 7, 1941, were not a result of dereliction in the performance of those duties by the then Admiral Kimmel; and
(2) the late Major General Walter C. Short performed his duties as Commanding General, Hawaiian Department, competently and professionally, and, therefore, the losses incurred by the United States in the attacks on Hickam Army Air Field and Schofield Barracks, Hawaii, and other targets on the island of Oahu, Hawaii, on December 7, 1941, were not a result of dereliction in the performance of those duties by the then Lieutenant General Short."
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:S.J.RES.55.IS:
Good one Boss, thank you. "Thomas" is a great resource.
Set, you are saying (not implying) that Roosevelt set the entire thing up, right?
I'm sayin' that anyone who believes that because they read it in a book, in one book, or read it on-line, is probably Darwin Award material . . .
Miss Lettybettyhettygetty, i'm sayin' that "knowing" anything about history is a helluva lot more complex than "because i read it this book."
John Bunyan describes this perfectly in The Pilgrim's Progress . . .
"As I walked through the wilderness of this world, I lighted on a certain place where was a Den, and I laid me down in that place to sleep: and, as I slept, I dreamed a dream. I dreamed, and behold, I saw a man clothed with rags, standing in a certain place, with his face from his own house, a book in his hand, and a great burden upon his back. I looked, and saw him open the book, and read therein; and, as he read, he wept, and trembled; and, not being able longer to contain, he brake out with a lamentable cry, saying, What shall I do?
"In this plight, therefore, he went home and refrained himself as long as he could, that his wife and children should not perceive his distress; but he could not be silent long, because that his trouble increased. Wherefore at length he brake his mind to his wife and children; and thus he began to talk to them: O my dear wife, said he, and you the children of my bowels, I, your dear friend, am in myself undone by reason of a burden that lieth hard upon me; moreover, I am for certain informed that this our city will be burned with fire from heaven; in which fearful overthrow, both myself, with thee my wife, and you my sweet babes, shall miserably come to ruin, except (the which yet I see not) some way of escape can be found, whereby we may be delivered. At this his relations were sore amazed; not for that they believed that what he had said to them was true, but because they thought that some frenzy distemper had got into his head; therefore, it drawing towards night, and they hoping that sleep might settle his brains, with all haste they got him to bed. But the night was as troublesome to him as the day; wherefore, instead of sleeping, he spent it in sighs and tears. So, when the morning was come, they would know how he did. He told them, Worse and worse: he also set to talking to them again; but they began to be hardened. They also thought to drive away his distemper by harsh and surly carriages to him; sometimes they would deride, sometimes they would chide, and sometimes they would quite neglect him. Wherefore he began to retire himself to his chamber, to pray for and pity them, and also to condole his own misery; he would also walk solitarily in the fields, sometimes reading, and sometimes praying: and thus for some days he spent his time.
"Now, I saw, upon a time, when he was walking in the fields, that he was, as he was wont, reading in his book, and greatly distressed in his mind; and, as he read, he burst out, as he had done before, crying, What shall I do to be saved?"
I'm with the neighbors . . . he read it in a book? I'd say that: " . . . some frenzy distemper had got into his head . . ."
Of course it was an inside job. Everyone in the Japanese high command knew about this, and their insiders are they not?
I read Pilgrim's Progress as a child, Set. I had no idea that it was considered the greatest allegory of all times. Frankly, I read it because it was like a fairy tale to me then. Now, I don't read much of nuttin'. Sooooo, you were being sarcastic about the reports that Pearl Harbor was an insider job. I do know this, however. It ended the depression for what ever reason. Thanks for the history lesson, Mr. Dimples. I mean that sincerely.
You know, Acq, i never trusted a bunch with such goofy names to begin with . . .
What I do not understand about this conspiracy theory is what benefit the conspirators hoped to derive from this plot according to the theorists. History is full of such legends to explain away military disasters.
It makes me wonder whether the British had any stories about treason, rather than incompetence and total underestimation of the opponent, to explain away the Isandlwana debacle.
Interesting point, Paaskynen. I believe that in the case of the Zulu War, they simply made great heroes of the survivors of the 23rd Foot at Rorke's Drift, and passed out an extraordinary number of Victoria Crosses to distract attention from the disasterous hubris of an Imperial high command who hadn't the sense to show the Zulu military machine the respect it deserved.
Since that "Zulu military machine" scored a Pyrrhic victory in that it was never again constituted as a fighting force, the Victoria crosses may have been appropriate after all.
I have often wondered whether the Russians, who lost a million men in their attack on Finland, asked the same question about intelligence available to Mannerheim - headquartered in Tornio, if memory serves, where poster of question is located.
Well, upon my word if it isn't our Setanta back at his post and keeping us informed. Great to see you and your bunny buddy, boss.
er, sorry. Back to the Zulu machine.
HofT wrote:I have often wondered whether the Russians, who lost a million men in their attack on Finland, asked the same question about intelligence available to Mannerheim - headquartered in Tornio, if memory serves, where poster of question is located.
Actually, it was Mikkeli (or St. Mikael, depending on whether you prefer the Finnish or Swedish version) a town in South East Finland. Mannerheim's old headquarters are now a museum. As to Tornio's history, check out the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornio
The Russian losses in the Winter War and the Continuation War were largely a result of their tactics, especially the mass attacks against defensive lines, and of the climate (and their lack of proper clothing and medical care). Stalin's purges of the military are often cited as one of the great contributors to the enormous losses suffered by the Soviet Union, because the remaining commanders were often not smart or brave enough to stand up to the official strategy.
As to intelligence, it was pretty clear what the Russians wanted to do: overwhelm the Finnish forces by sheer weight of numbers and materials and march to Helsinki, end of story. It didn't take a genius to figure that out. And as to the Russians explaining away their lack of success, as usual in dictatorships, someone down the line of command got the blame and was sent to Siberia or something.
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