11
   

Catalonia wants out; Spain says no

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2017 11:36 am
@centrox,
centrox wrote:
In an anti-Catalan-independence rally in Madrid, Fascist salutes were seen.
That was what I'd thought, but Lash seems to have seen it (via twitter) today in Barcelona as well.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2017 11:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
No sources, no links, no substance, no ****.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2017 12:12 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I’ve thought about the issues you raise, used the template for my own country. It would be ridiculously hypocritical if I hadn’t.

There’s always secessionist noise from Cali. I would not support armed intervention against that movement, though it is fraught with potential damage for this country. Not sure if a serious bid for separation will ever materialize.

I can imagine what breakaways can mean to nations.

I think we’ve watched a build up - globalization - and, I think we’re watching the first fissures of a surprisingly quick retreat from it. I’m not sure exactly what it will mean, but I understand the why.

Most humans fight against increasing external control.

I guess my union and yours have quite different origins, and that fact speaks to our different perspectives.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2017 12:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
It was stated with pictures, but anything on Twitter can be. So, take with salt.
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2017 12:16 pm
@centrox,
Thanks for adding that. <swings back to supporting Catalonia leaving>
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2017 12:22 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

I would not support armed intervention against that movement, though it is fraught with potential damage for this country.


Nobody is supporting armed intervention anywhere. That has not happened, a civilian police force used rather heavy handed tactics to stop an unconstitutional referendum. They've not sent the troops in.

Try to deal with what's actually happening as opposed to what's going on in your head.

The Spanish police were heavy handed but nothing like this.

Quote:
Morton County police use teargas, a water cannon and rubber bullets against demonstrators from Standing Rock in North Dakota on Sunday night. Protesters braved freezing conditions and percussion grenades as they resisted the controversial pipeline with chants of ‘water not oil’. The company working on the pipeline, Energy Transfer Partners, has almost completed the system, but lack the permission to drill under the river


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/nov/21/dakota-access-pipeline-standing-rock-water-cannon-video

Now that's armed intervention, and I don't remember you complaining about it at the time.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2017 12:31 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I guess my union and yours have quite different origins, and that fact speaks to our different perspectives.
In Catalonia it doesn'tt really matter how Germany or the USA became a federal republic or what the history behind that is.

Nowadays, Spain's constitution assumes the unity of Spain and recognises the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions that comprise it.

[In USA, states have the power which they chose to keep for themselves, in (nowadays) Germany, states have the power which the constitution gives them.]
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2017 12:36 pm
@izzythepush,
Then you were not paying attention. I complained bitterly as did many others here. I donated money more than once to help the natives eat and buy blankets.

It was horrible, and really showed where Obama’s and Clinton’s loyalties were during the disgusting military assault. Obama could’ve stopped it and chose to remain silent.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2017 04:27 pm
https://able2know.org/topic/354549-1#post-6307883

Standing Rock/#NODAPL opinions.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Oct, 2017 12:46 am
@Lash,
Why do you think I would want to pay attention to anything you wrote? Seriously, given everything that's happened why would you think that?

I get it, you used this incident as an excuse to attack Obama and Clinton, and that's the only reason you affected concern.

I'm not going to plough through six pages of an old thread on the off chance you may have posted something condemning police brutality.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Oct, 2017 02:14 am
With Sofia Lash Goth, it's all about attacking Clinton. Clinton was not in office in Mr. Obama's administration when activists began the move to block the Dakota Access Pipeline. Neither Clinton nor Trump (whom she has described as her president) commented on the protests during the campaign in 2016. Her president has since signed an executive order in an attempt to "streamline" the project. The Corps of Engineers had halted construction through Federal lands, pending the acceptance of an environmental impact statement. President Plump has since ordered them to stand down. More than 700 protesters have been arrested, and one Sioux leader, along with 70 protesters, was arrested, and all of them were charged with inciting a riot, which is a Federal felony charge. Remember, this is from "her" president. She doesn't give a rat's ass about the Sioux.

Those who pay attention know that it's always about attacking Clinton with Sofia Lash Goth. In another thread, I cited and linked a thread from longer than 14 years ago which was an attack on Clinton. Her phony baloney support of Sanders was not about touting his agenda, it was always about attacking Clinton. When I brought this up most recently, she went around voting down my posts, including in a poetry thread and the obituary thread for Mr. Petty. We can expect the same here, which she has already demonstrated because she didn't like my comments here. Of course, she does the same for Walter and Izzy. She's petty and mean.

With Sofia Lash Goth, it's always about attacking Clinton.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Oct, 2017 04:49 am
Meanwhile ...
The Spanish government and its Catalonia region showed no signs of compromise on Monday.

The French European affairs minister urges both sides to negotiate their way out of crisis triggered by last week’s referendum
France has said it will not recognise Catalonia if the regional government presses ahead with a unilateral declaration of independence from Spain, and urged both sides to negotiate their way out of the crisis triggered by last week’s referendum.
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Mon 9 Oct, 2017 07:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
A split within a split: the Catalan valley sticking with Spain
Quote:
VIELHA, Spain (Reuters) - If Catalonia declares independence from Spain this week, one community in the region’s mountainous north might declare independence from Catalonia.

Most people in the picturesque Aran Valley - a semi-autonomous community nestled among the Pyrenees - want to stay with Spain, and the area has the right to self-determination under a law passed in 2015 by the Catalan parliament.

... ... ...


The “Occitan national reality” of Val d’Aran includes the region’s right to autonomy, and Aranese enjoys co-official status alongside Catalan and Spanish.
Val d’Aran: The Catalonian Exception
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 9 Oct, 2017 09:09 am
@Walter Hinteler,
An independent Catalonia: practicalities of leaving Spain
Quote:
The immediate practical consequences of Catalan independence – like those of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal – would have far-reaching implications for the region, its businesses and its people.

As with warnings of City firms fleeing a hard Brexit, industry is already alarmed: half a dozen Spanish companies, including major banks, are moving their registered head offices to guarantee access to their domestic and wider EU markets.

Despite claims by pro-independence campaigners that the EU would not want to lose a wealthy region that would rank 15th or 16th in the bloc in terms of GDP, Brussels has made clear that the region will not automatically become a member.

It would have to apply, and acceptance would require the agreement of every other EU member state – including Spain, which in 2014 threatened to veto an eventual Scottish accession bid precisely to discourage Catalan independence.

... ... ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 12:37 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
[...]
On Monday, it emerged that the head of the Catalan high court had ordered Spanish national police officers to help protect the court building, which is usually guarded by the Mossos. Explaining his decision in a statement, Jesús María Barrientos said a declaration of independence could disrupt the running of the court and could even result in judges – including himself – being removed.

Speaking on Monday evening, the mayor of Barcelona, Ada Colau, called for urgent negotiations, saying Spain was facing its “greatest institutional crisis” since its return to democracy following the death of Franco in 1975.

She asked both Rajoy and Puigdemont to drop their entrenched positions and to talk to each other. “We cannot allow ourselves to jeopardise either social cohesion or Catalan institutions,” she said.

“The results of 1 October cannot be used as a guarantee for the declaration of independence. But they do represent an opportunity to open dialogue and international mediation.” Urging both sides to calm the tensions, she added: “It’s time to build bridges; not to blow them up.”
... ... ...
Source
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 01:09 am
Today could be very significant.

Quote:
Catalan President Carles Puigdemont is facing growing pressure to drop plans to break from Spain ahead of a key address to the regional parliament.
There has been speculation that he could announce a unilateral declaration of independence following a disputed referendum.
France and Germany have both expressed support for a united Spain.
The mayor of Barcelona urged Mr Puigdemont and Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy to "de-escalate" the crisis.
Ahead of Mr Puigdemont's speech to the Catalan parliament on Tuesday evening, Mayor Ada Colau urged him not to declare independence, and also called on Mr Rajoy to rule out direct control from Madrid.
"I ask them not to take any decision that might blow up the possibility of any space for dialogue and mediation," said Ms Colau.
"That is the most courageous act they could do now."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41562155
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 05:16 am
@izzythepush,
The NYT has a really good (longer) report about the separatist movement in Catalonia:
Catalonia Independence Fight Produces Some Odd Bedfellows
Quote:
BARCELONA, Spain — What links an anarchist youth group, a conservative party of free marketeers and a left-wing party committed instead to enhancing the welfare state?

The answer lies in the Catalan independence movement, which in the last seven years has morphed from a marginal force into a genuine threat to Spain’s territorial integrity, largely through a marriage of convenience among several unlikely bedfellows.

If this separatist alliance sounds fragile, unwieldy and paradoxical, that’s because it is.

... ... ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 11:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
A lot has been going on, but now ...

https://i.imgur.com/K4BViMK.jpg
(screenshot from French BFM tv channel)
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 11:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
As an aside: there's Northern Catalonia as well, also called French Catalonia resp. in a politically more neutral language Roussillon - roughly the modern French département Pyrénées-Orientales.
(For those interested: read about the Treaty of the Pyrenees from 1659.)

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont has told the regional parliament that Catalonia should declare independence, but suspend the effects of the referendum to facilitate dialogue with Madrid.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 02:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:


Quote:
Isaiah Berlin once wrote that nationalism feeds on a sense of wounded pride and humiliation. As Europe tries to sort itself out and prepare for the future – including through grassroots “democratic conventions” due next year across the continent – it would do well to pay closer attention to those wounds left by history. We thought that they had healed – but they really haven’t.



There was always nationalism in the U.S. It was seen in the Manifest Destiny that promulgated the belief that the U.S. should extend from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean. What "wounded pride and humiliation" caused this?

The only possible "wounded pride and humiliation" was being the losers in the European class system (i.e., owned no land)? Does that count?
 

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