11
   

Catalonia wants out; Spain says no

 
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 02:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

...I believe that overcoming small states was an act of modernisation and emancipation...



Would smaller (and more numerous) small states give the modern west more votes in the U.N.?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 02:21 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

It was seen in the Manifest Destiny that promulgated the belief that the U.S. should extend from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean.


Had they asked me, I would have said from Baffin Bay to Tierra del Fuego.
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 02:29 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Foofie wrote:

It was seen in the Manifest Destiny that promulgated the belief that the U.S. should extend from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean.


Had they asked me, I would have said from Baffin Bay to Tierra del Fuego.

If you notice, the movers and shakers of all Americas are still the descendants of those from the European western powers, perhaps (Spain, Britain, France, and Portugal).
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 04:48 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Thanks, Walter, for the treaty suggestion.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 12:35 am
Quote:
The Spanish government has rejected a statement of independence signed by Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont and dismissed calls for mediation.
Spain's deputy prime minister described Mr Puigdemont as someone "who does not know where he is, where he's going".
Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy is due to hold an emergency cabinet meeting to discuss the government's next steps.
Mr Puigdemont signed a declaration of independence on Tuesday, but halted implementation to allow negotiations.
There had been speculation that the Catalan president might declare independence and put the move into effect, plunging Spain into an even deeper political crisis.
Spain has been in turmoil since a disputed referendum on 1 October which was declared invalid by the country's Constitutional Court.
Addressing the Catalan parliament in Barcelona, Mr Puigdemont said the autonomous region had won the right to be independent as a result of the vote.
"We call on international states and organisations to recognise the Catalan republic as an independent and sovereign state," he said.
He said the "people's will" was to break away from Madrid, but he also said he wanted to "de-escalate" the tension around the issue.
"I propose suspending the effects of the declaration of independence to undertake talks in the coming weeks without which it is not possible to reach an agreed solution," Mr Puigdemont told MPs.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41576870
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 05:34 am
The methods "Spain" is using to prevent people from acting independently are chilling to me.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/918063518108315648/photo/1

They've taken over and blocked an app to prevent communication.

This is dystopian behavior.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 05:48 am
It not certain that a majority of Catalans are in favor of secession. By the "logic" just expressed, the American civil war was "dystopian" oppression.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 06:09 am
@Setanta,
The last election saw the nationalists winning 48% of the Catalan vote, that's the same as the remain vote in the Brexit referendum.

Lash is doing what the far right always do, frighten people. When people are scared they're easier to control, witness Dubya's actions post 9/11.

By misrepresenting and wildly exaggerating what's happening in Europe and Spain Lash is ratcheting up distrust of the other. America must stay true to certain right wing doctrines or the result is chaos, war and anarchy. It's not just here either she started a thread about the Californian wires just to claim it was arson, so instead of talking about the fire, its effects, the people, the area, posters had to debunk the arson myth.

Enemies everywhere, reds under the bed, civil war in Europe, lie, distort, frighten, control.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 06:24 am
@izzythepush,
I do think, too, that Lash is totally misrepresenting and wildly exaggerating what's going on, here and there.
And, true: that's what the extreme right has done and still does everywhere.

While I understand Lash's motivations, I'm unsure why Assange started his private battle to splinter Europe. (He kept silent about the dozens of apps not allowed in Russia.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 06:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The Spanish Government has asked the Barcelona regional government to formally clarify whether or not it has declared the independence of the region of Catalonia.

By asking this, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has quasi heralded the pre-stage of the Spanish constitution's article 155.

Invoking article 155 could be like letting the genie out of the bottle. It might also inspire solidarity for Catalonia in other wantaway regions of Spain, like the Basque Country.

And I do wonder, if this will improve the Unitat Catalana( the political party of the Catalans in France).
Since they are, however, "un mouvement catalan, démocratique, progressiste et européen", I doubt, they will get Lash's support.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 06:55 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Assange is very bitter, I think he just wants to throw ****.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 08:00 am
@Walter Hinteler,
My bias toward self-determination, freedom of speech, and individual rights is my motivation. It’s silly of you ridiculous men to constantly try to pretend I have some weird, ulterior motive. You try, routinely, to avoid the actual issues by making the argument about me personally. It just underlines your inability to defend your anti-Catalan position—or more specifically, your support of the crackdown on independent-minded people in Catalonia.

Let’s take a look at what you’re supporting and why.

You’re supporting draconian, riot-police violence against elderly people who wanted to vote, stealing ballot boxes, breaking into schools where people were peacefully attempting to vote, and blocking communication of citizens. This **** is unsupportable and it was unnecessary. It was a blatant message to the people about their subservience in Spain, and the EU’s refusal to speak against it was its message of approval.

I know Walter is heavily invested in the strength of the EU, and that we all know EU Power is tied tightly to the failure of uprisings like Brexit and Catalonia. Of course Walter is opposed to Catalan independence— because he feels a strong EU overrides increased independence for individuals. That’s not a completely unsupportable position; however, I just don’t understand how someone can approve what Spain did to the Catalans, even if they do prefer a strong EU.

There are several countries (or pockets of individuals within EU member states) who aren’t satisfied with the arrangement. They’re speaking out. They’re being shut down with violence and intentional removal of communication sources.

These tactics bear close observation. You may think you want what the EU and European figureheads are forcibly maintaining. What will you have at your disposal when you change your mind?

Assange’s life for the last several years has been focused on transparency in government and fighting the kind of governmental clampdowns on freedom we’re seeing all around us now. He showed the world the Machiavellian emails of the DNC that left no doubt an American primary was rigged by a major political party. He sees the same type of governmental overreach in Catalonia, and is doing the same thing with that story—shining a light on it.

Don’t feel the need to assume your usual positions of picking one side and defending every bullshit crime they commit and personally attacking anyone who disagrees.

How about evaluating what’s happening?





Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 08:17 am
@Lash,
I will response to your bullshit.

- I don't think this has anything to do with the EU (You still don't know what the EU is.)
- I've never ever supported "draconian, riot-police violence against elderly people" - I'm against any violence, especially by police (actually, I got wrote an article about for prevention of police for our police when working in the prevention department of our State Criminal Police Office [police is state affair in Germany])
- I don't oppose Catalanian independence - if such is the result of a legal act

I oppose anything illegal - and that includes unconstitutional affairs.

Your allegations and false statements about what I do and think prove a lot.
Lash
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 08:21 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Get in line.

You and your cronies dish that out constantly. I’m happy to return the favor.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 08:24 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I do think, too, that Lash is totally misrepresenting and wildly exaggerating what's going on, here and there.
And, true: that's what the extreme right has done and still does everywhere.

While I understand Lash's motivations, ...

Here’s what it looks like when YOU are guilty of it.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 08:34 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Spain: Mariano Rajoy outlines way forward on Catalonia crisis
Quote:
In a live televised broadcast, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy tells parliament how he plans to move forward on the growing political crisis concerning Catalonia's independence bid. "The rule of law, plurality and democracy need to be recovered," said Rajoy.
[...]
The Spanish government will expect an act or statement of clarification from Catalan leaders on whether they declared independence, given Rajoy's latest statements.

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont said Tuesday that although he accepted a "Yes" vote on independence during a controversial referendum earlier this month, the independence process will be suspended to allow for talks with Madrid. After a statement of clarification, the two sides will likely engage in bilateral talks about the future of the region.

The terms under which Catalonia enjoys semi-autonomous status are likely to change too. The ruling People's Party and opposition Socialists in Madrid said they agreed to open talks to renegotiate the terms of state autonomy as set out in the Spanish constitution in six months.
...
While the European Commission has stopped short of declining to mediate, the EU's executive body said it backs "full respect of the Spanish constitutional order."

But David McAllister, foreign affairs committee in the European Parliament, said the EU could and would not mediate unless it "was given a mandate" to do so, which is unlikely due to opposition from Rajoy.
...
There are two groups that have snubbed talk of dialogue between Madrid and Barcelona. In Catalonia, leftist groups have criticized the Catalan president for failing to outright declare independence. On the other side, rightwing unionists have attacked Rajoy for not triggering Article 155 and directly suspending Catalonia's independence after the referendum.
...
... Even if the Catalan government unilaterally declared independence, it is unlikely to gain international recognition, which would be necessary to participate in the global economy and international political order. For example, the German government said Wednesday that a declaration of independence "would be illegal and would not receive any recognition" from Berlin.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 02:42 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

It not certain that a majority of Catalans are in favor of secession. By the "logic" just expressed, the American civil war was "dystopian" oppression.


Possibly, she doesn't realize you and she could be in different leagues when it comes to analysis?
Lash
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 06:19 pm
@Foofie,
She realizes she enjoys analysts of current events, and has an open mind.

She has also mentioned similarities and differences between Catalonia and secession of an American state very briefly elsewhere.

izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2017 12:50 am
@Lash,
You've got nothing which remotely resembles an open mind, you made your mind up about what's going on in Catalonia long before you found out what was happening. And when the facts didn't fit with your prejudices/preconceptions you made **** up.

All you're doing is repeating Russian/far right propaganda.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Oct, 2017 01:07 am
Once again, it is worth pointing out that it is by no means certain that a majority of the Catalans want to secede from Spain. Anguished, melodramatic appeals to one's own alleged virtues don't change this. No one here has said anything in support of draconian measures. People here who have bothered to inform themselves understand the realpolitik facing Rajoy, and legitimately question assertions that this is a case of a popularly supported movement of national self-determination.
0 Replies
 
 

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