10
   

Catalonia wants out; Spain says no

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 06:31 am
@Lash,
The statement of the EU-commission and the comment by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights in full
Quote:
European Commission - Statement
Statement on the events in Catalonia

Brussels, 2 October 2017

Under the Spanish Constitution, yesterday's vote in Catalonia was not legal.
For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.
We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.
Beyond the purely legal aspects of this matter, the Commission believes that these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation.
We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein.
STATEMENT/17/3626
Source

Quote:
Comment by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein on the situation in Catalonia, Spain

GENEVA (2 October 2017) - I am very disturbed by the violence in Catalonia on Sunday. With hundreds of people reported injured, I urge the Spanish authorities to ensure thorough, independent and impartial investigations into all acts of violence. Police responses must at all times be proportionate and necessary.

I firmly believe that the current situation should be resolved through political dialogue, with full respect for democratic freedoms.

I call on the Government of Spain to accept without delay the requests by relevant UN human rights experts to visit.

ENDS
Source
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 06:38 am
EU: Beatings and attacks were legal.

UN: We’re investigating beatings and attacks.

Rajoy: We acted serenely.

Facts and video evidence: Rajoy is a goddam liar.

EU: We support Rajoy.



https://youtu.be/R8zNgP3imlI
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 06:44 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

EU: Beatings and attacks were legal.

EU: We support Rajoy.


This is typical of the sort of drivel you post. Your video link does not mention the EU at all.

Who in the EU supposed to have said what you claimed? An actual name of a real person is needed if you don't want people to think you're just making **** up again.
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 06:51 am
@izzythepush,
Walter’s post immediately previous to mine has the full statements from the EU and the UN.

Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 06:52 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

EU: Beatings and attacks were legal.

UN: We’re investigating beatings and attacks.

Rajoy: We acted serenely.

Facts and video evidence: Rajoy is a goddam liar.

EU: We support Rajoy.



https://youtu.be/R8zNgP3imlI
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 06:55 am
@Lash,
It does, it does not contain the phrase "Beatings and attacks were legal," which you have attributed to the EU. So I'll ask again, who specifically in the EU said that?

No more prevarication, either give me a name and a link to your source or admit you're just making **** up.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 07:51 am
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.france24.com/en/20171002-spain-catalonia-independence-referendum-police-crackdown-help-europe

Catalan separatists are hoping Sunday’s violent police crackdown on those trying to vote in an independence referendum will persuade EU leaders to intervene in their intensifying dispute with the government in Madrid.

An elderly woman forcibly dragged from a polling booth, another with blood trickling down her face and police attacking firefighters as they tried to protect the crowds of Catalan voters – all of this in a stable European democracy.

The shocking scenes of violence that marred Catalonia’s independence vote on Sunday made headlines around the world, threatening to turn the already divisive vote into a public relations debacle for Spain’s central government.

The actions of the authorities contrasted sharply with the calm determination and composure shown by those who turned out to take part in a vote that Spain’s constitutional court had declared illegal.

View this content on France 24 site
Catalan officials said more than 90 percent of voters had said 'Yes' to independence from Spain, although turnout was estimated at just over 42 percent, with 2.26 million voters having defied Madrid’s injunction not to take part in the referendum.

“We showed we are a united and peaceful people,” said Artur, 30, who spent much of the day guarding a polling station at the Miguel de Cervantes school in Barcelona to prevent police from seizing the ballot boxes.

‘Strategy of repression’

But while Catalan separatists have largely succeeded in holding a vote the Spanish government had promised to thwart, few were in the mood to claim victory after Sunday’s chaotic scenes.

“At what price?” asked Cristina, 48, after casting her ballot in the Catalan regional capital. “It has been a day of suffering, with many injured people still in hospital, unable to vote.”

Catalan officials said 844 people had sought medical care while the Spanish interior ministry said 33 police officers had also been injured.

Like many others in Barcelona, Cristina was baffled by the Spanish government’s “strategy of repression”.

“Is this what Spain is about?” she fumed. “This isn’t democracy! […] If the [Spanish] government said this referendum doesn’t count, then why did it use such force?”

View this content on France 24 site
Sharing Cristina's outrage was her sister Myriam, who likened the riot police’s “Robocop” methods to those of the Franco era.

“They used rubber bullets, even though they are banned here in Catalonia,” she said.

Myriam noted the contrast with the conduct of the Catalan regional police force, known as the Mossos, who mostly refused to enforce Madrid’s orders and sometimes sided with the crowd.

Pressure on Rajoy

While Madrid praised the riot police for “acting with professionalism and responding proportionately”, opposition figures were scathing in their criticism of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy and his government.

Barcelona Mayor Ada Colau, who adopted a neutral tone in the run-up to the vote, said Rajoy had “crossed all the red lines with the police actions against normal people, old people, families who were defending their fundamental rights".

She called Rajoy a “coward” and urged him to resign.

Miguel Urban, a member of the European Parliament and spokesman for the left-wing Podemos movement, said the government had been irresponsible in claiming to “defend democracy with batons”.

“We need to unite to drive Rajoy out of power,” he added.


Meanwhile, the head of Catalonia’s regional government, Carles Puigdemont, said Sunday’s events showed Catalans had “won the right to become an independent state”. He called on Europe to step in to make sure fundamental rights were fully respected.

A spokesman for his administration, Jordi Turull, said the “savage” actions of the Spanish police had turned Spain into “the shame of Europe”.

Europe’s muted response

Catalan separatists are now hoping the fallout from the violent vote will spur European governments into action.

So far, EU officials and most member states have been reluctant to intercede in the escalating dispute between Spain’s central government and its richest region, viewing it as an internal Spanish matter.

But Sunday’s violence, witnessed by European observers at polling stations in Catalonia, has put pressure on Spain’s European partners to speak out.

Belgian Prime Minister Charles Michel was among the few national leaders to urge restraint, writing on Twitter that, “Violence can never be the answer!”

Former Belgian premier and senior European lawmaker Guy Verhofstadt said that while he did “not want to interfere” in Spain’s domestic affairs, “I absolutely condemn what happened today in Catalonia.”

View this content on France 24 site
In other countries, governments faced calls from opposition leaders to denounce the police brutality, which Germany’s Social Democrat leader Martin Schulz described as a “worrying” escalation.

In Britain, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn slammed the “shocking” violence used against Catalan citizens while Scotland's pro-independence leader, Nicola Sturgeon, called on Spain to “change course before someone is seriously hurt”.

But by Sunday evening Rajoy had given no indication that he planned to soften his stance, doubling down by denying that the vote had even taken place.

"Today there has not been a self-determination referendum in Catalonia," he said, blaming the violence on “those who violated the law”.

In a warning to his opponents in Barcelona, he noted that he still enjoyed “the unconditional support of all European leaders.”

izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 07:57 am
@Lash,
Still no mention of the phrase "Beatings and attacks were legal." Stop cutting and pasting walls of text, either provide a source or admit to making **** up.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 09:09 am
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/10/01/europe/catalonia-spain-independence-referendum-result/index.html
Excerpt:
CNN) Spain is facing a political and constitutional crisis after Catalans voted in favor of independence in a contested referendum that descended into chaos when police launched a widespread and violent crackdown.

The Catalan government said it had earned the right to split from Spain after results showed 90% of those who voted were in favor of a split.

But amid an unexpectedly harsh response from Spanish police, turnout was only around 42%. The Catalan health ministry said 893 people were injured in the clashes Sunday as riot police raided polling stations, dragged away voters and fired rubber bullets.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 09:15 am
I've just googled "EU Beatings and attacks were legal." Only one result, this bloody thread. Lash is making **** up.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 06:59 pm
Use Bing.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 07:29 pm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/opinion/catalonia-independence-referendum-spain.amp.html

Excerpt:

BARCELONA, Spain — The violent images from Catalonia’s prohibited referendum on independence from Spain will not be forgotten anytime soon. Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy of Spain now has a legacy that includes gruesome photographs and videos of policemen confiscating ballot boxes, using tear gas on voters and swatting elderly women with batons.

Despite this repression, more than 90 percent of the voters on Sunday — more than two million people — in Catalonia voted to secede from Spain. Far from defusing the crisis, Mr. Rajoy has strengthened the resolve of the independence movement and further polarized the country.

This was not the only option available to the prime minister. In early September, pro-independence parties in Catalonia’s regional Parliament broke their own laws when they bypassed the opposition to pass legislation that would make the referendum’s result binding. If Mr. Rajoy’s intention was to delegitimize the vote, all he had to do was refuse to recognize the result and he and his right-wing Popular Party would most likely have faced little resistance from most of Spain’s political forces.

This would have maintained the deadlock of recent years, but it would also have avoided escalating the conflict. Instead, the use of force has confirmed the referendum’s legitimacy in the eyes of those who participated in it.

ADVERTISEMENT

At first glance, Mr. Rajoy’s strategy seems counterintuitive. If his intention is to persuade the people of Catalonia to remain in Spain, the violence on Sunday does not make an attractive case. But winning hearts and minds in the region is not his main objective. He is putting his own interests and those of his party ahead of Spain’s stability.

Support for Mr. Rajoy’s Popular Party has always been weak in Catalonia, as it has been in the Basque region, where separatist sentiment is also strong. One consequence of the Franco dictatorship’s decades-long repression of Basque and Catalan culture is that today conservative parties in both places can distinguish themselves from the Popular Party by referring to anti-fascist struggle with some credibility. In fact, this has been a crucial factor in bringing about the current crisis.

Opposition to Mr. Rajoy has fueled the Catalan independence movement for years. In July 2012, some eight months into his first term as prime minister, Mr. Rajoy rejected a plan that would have given Catalonia more fiscal autonomy. Before then, the conservative Catalan nationalist party Convergence worked with the Popular Party to push austerity measures through Parliament. But austerity was deeply unpopular — as evidenced by the rise of the “indignados” movement throughout Spain — and Convergence saw the writing on the wall. It jettisoned its alliance with Mr. Rajoy’s party and joined forces with progressive nationalists and the movement for independence.

In this context, the political costs of a heavy-handed approach to Catalonia have been low for Mr. Rajoy. Indeed, he is using the issue to sow division among his rivals. Spain’s federal model and the right to self-determination are extremely divisive issues for the country’s left-wing parties, the traditional center-left Socialist Party and the new, grass-roots Podemos. While the Socialists support a federal model and wanted to avoid a referendum, Podemos backs a legally binding vote on Catalan independence. Mr. Rajoy’s obstinacy capitalizes on this division, weakening the Socialists by forcing them to compete with the Popular Party for hard-line unionist voters.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 08:07 pm
https://mobile.twitter.com/JulianAssange

Julian Assange 🔹 @JulianAssange
·
15m
In Catalonia now the population is driving out remaining elements of Spain's Civil Guard and National Police by concentrating it front of their barracks and hotels, in one case aided by fire fighters. According to local press three hotels have required the state forces to leave.

------------------------

Lovely 😊
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2017 08:25 pm
https://theintercept.com/2017/10/02/mix-hope-fear-anger-catalonia-millions-vote-independence-spain/

Another link from my favorite source🌴📝✌🏼
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2017 01:07 am
Actual news from a proper news site as opposed to made up **** with links for magazine subscriptions.

Quote:
A general strike threatens to bring large areas of Catalonia to a standstill, following the Spanish region's disputed referendum.
The strike was called by Catalan trade unions and associations due to "the grave violation of rights and freedoms" seen during Sunday's ballot.
Madrid had deemed the referendum illegal. However, more than 2.2m people reportedly voted in spite of this.
But hundreds were hurt as Spanish police tried to stop it going ahead.
Some of the officers ordered to prevent people casting their vote were seen firing rubber bullets, storming into polling stations and pulling women by their hair.
Thirty-three police officers were injured on Sunday, Catalan medical officials said.
Tuesday's strike, a reaction to the violence, will see public transport, schools and clinics in Catalonia closed for the day.
Barcelona's famous football team is also expected to go on strike, although it is not due to play a match, as are the city's public universities and contemporary art museum.
It would be wrong to interpret the anger and anguish so palpable in Catalonia right now as an expression of political unity. Catalans are as divided as ever on the question of independence.
What unites them today is a seething fury and resentment at the heavy-handedness of the Spanish government, represented by Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, with what Catalans perceive as his Madrid-centric arrogance, brutishness and disregard for the rights of individuals.
This is far less about separatism than populism. Anti-establishment, nationalist sentiment a la Catalana.
Meanwhile, political leaders are trying to find a way forward.
Catalan President Carles Puigdemont has said he wants a new understanding with the central government in Madrid, but the government, led by Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, has warned it could suspend autonomy of the wealthy north-eastern region.
However, while Catalan officials say almost 90% of voters backed independence, turn out was relatively low at a reported 42%, potentially weakening Mr Puigdemont's position.
What's more, given the chaotic nature of the vote, the turnout and voting figures should be taken with a pinch of salt, says the BBC's Tom Burridge in Barcelona.
Mr Rajoy has said the vote made a "mockery" of democracy, saying that Catalans had been fooled into taking part in the illegal vote.
The prime minister held talks with Pedro Sánchez, the leader of the main opposition Socialist party, as well as Albert Rivera, the head of the centrist Ciudadanos party, late on Monday.
While the socialist leader urged Mr Rajoy to hold talks with the Catalan president immediately, Mr Rivera said Spain should invoke article 155 of the constitution, in effect suspending Catalonia's autonomous powers.
Mr Puigdemont has called on the international community to help mediate between the two sides.
However, the European Commission described the crisis as "an internal matter" for Spain, that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41479048
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2017 04:35 am
I was Catalan, Spanish and European. But Mariano Rajoy has changed all that
Quote:
[...]
As a Catalan living in the UK while the EU referendum played out, having seen the false promises made in favour of Brexit, I could not support the idea of independence. I respected the idea of a referendum – we live in a democracy and people should have a right to decide and I understood the frustration of many Catalans – but I did not think independence was the solution. That was before Sunday. But having seen the way the Spanish government decided to use force to fight the will of peaceful citizens, where does that leave me?

After six years in the UK, I know how it feels to be rejected from the place I now call home, and have learned that separation, borders and flags are rarely the answer. While trying to come to terms with where EU citizens like me sit in the divided country I now live in, a feeling of division is also growing back home.

The division comes from both sides, though. Spain does not want to see Catalonia leave, but it is certainly going about preventing it in the wrong way. Early last week videos appeared of hundreds of people in the south of Spain seeing off police cars leaving for Catalonia to help the central government, shouting “Go get them!”, while waving Spanish flags. It said it all. It felt as though we were back in the Spanish civil war. At a cafe in Madrid, on referendum day, my brother overheard a group of women saying: “These Catalan people just need a couple of slaps to learn they have to stay.”
[...]
I am Catalan, feel Catalan, was educated in Catalan. I am also Spanish and European. Up until recently, these sides have been easy to reconcile. It feels as though something has changed. My initial instinct was not to vote, and to let the people who have something to say say it.

But in the week leading to referendum day, the Spanish government’s reaction changed my mind. It felt like this was no longer about nationalism but about democracy and free speech. Had I been at home over the weekend I probably would have taken to the streets in support of my fellow Catalans, voting blank as Barcelona mayor Ada Colau did. This is about having a conversation and opening dialogue.

Those Catalonians who wanted to vote for independence were united by the desire for self-determination, regardless of age, social class or political ideology. Now I wouldn’t be surprised to see that group grow, united behind a message of democratic rights.

Whatever is next for the independence movement, one thing is sure. There will forever be a before and after 1 October in both Spanish and Catalan history.
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2017 04:56 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Incredibly powerful. Thanks for sharing.

Violence against people's speech and expression is startling in a free society. This seems to have major implications for the EU, but I guess we'll see.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2017 05:19 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
This seems to have major implications for the EU, but I guess we'll see.
And which ones, exactly? To the EU as a political and economic union in its entirety or to EU-organs and/or single member states?

I might have misunderstood your response(s), but do you really now promote the EU governing domestic affairs of member states?
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2017 05:38 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I think we're seeing societal and political shudders that will lead to more losses of member states. This fracture of Spain wasn't directed by or caused by, initially, any negative EU sentiment, but the authoritarian crackdown--notably tacitly supported in the first hours by the EU -- opened many eyes to the forceful busting-heads control the EU ultimately exerts over member states. Rather than a happy alliance of nations, this episode and the EU's immediate response to it makes the EU look like snakey tentacles reaching across Europe to violently choke off bids for self-determination.

I thought the EU would condemn it outright. They had to regroup after some hours from their unadulterated support of Rajoy.

I'm looking now at problems with Hungary and Poland.

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2017 05:50 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I'm looking now at problems with Hungary and Poland.
Are you now trying to find similarities? (Poland has ignored court rulings, undermined the judiciary’s independence, minimised freedom of the press etc etc; Hungary lost the case re. refugees, doesn't get EU-money for the border fence)
 

Related Topics

I Will Vote No More - Perhaps Forever - Discussion by edgarblythe
Your first Presidential ballot - Discussion by jespah
2018 midterms - Discussion by Lash
Who to vote for - Question by dalehileman
Pick the best motto - Question by S4INTY
Ron Paul 2012 - Discussion by Krumple
I'll vote for you. And you. And you. - Discussion by jespah
 
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 08/04/2020 at 11:17:53