Yes, Walter, this has to make many leaders in Europe nervous.
Lash has sneered at people who are knowledgeable in history, and in particular at me. But as the dictum has it, people who forget their history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. In the wake of the Second World War, the colonial empires disintegrated in Asia and Africa. This process was most dramatic in the subcontinent, with the creation of the nation of India, and East and West Pakistan. In our own lifetime, we have seen the fragmentation of Pakistan, with India gleefully participating in the process of the creation of Bangladesh. The same thing happened, but failed in Nigeria-Biafra. French Indochina broke down into four "nations," leading to one of the most disastrous wars in which the United States has ever been involved. The process in Africa and Asia is not ended, yet, either. Witness the holocaust in Rwanda, and in Myanmar/Burma.
It has happened in Europe in our lifetime as well. The collapse of the Soviet Union lead to a fragmentation, and the repercussions still echo from that. The Russians pried Abkhazia and Ossetia away from Georgia, and ruthlessly crushed independence movements in Ingushetia and Chechnya. It was realpolitik that they would seize the Crimean peninsula when the Ukrainians tossed out Putin's lap dog, but the Crimean Tatars are looking around and asking: "Hey, what about us?" (After all, they stole the peninsula in the 13th century, fair and square, flying on the Mongol coattails.) Putin has found it useful to back rebels in the Ukraine to keep the pot boiling and to keep Kyiv off balance. He sure as hell isn't going to give up the major naval facilities in Crimea.
Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia were created at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919, and they have fragmented in our lifetime, very recently. The Sámi of northern Scandinavia are the people of what is called Lapland in English, and they stretch across Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia. What about them?
Spain did not exist in 1492. It did not exist in 1504 when Isabella of Castile died. (History's most ferocious ditzy blonde.) It did not exist in 1506 when Felipe I died. Poor Juana, she outlived her mother, her father, her husband and most of her children. Ferdinand was the brains of the operation, as Isabella was the military muscle. He made the marriage matches that sent Catalina to England (where she became known as Catherine of Aragon) and sent Juana to Burgundy to marry Philippe of Burgundy, who became Felipe I. Ferdinand suckered Henry VIII into invading France in a hopeless and witless effort to retake Gascony, and behind the unwitting shield of the English army, he stole the kingdom of Navarre, fair and square. It was actually his grandson, Carlos, who completed the conquest, and got their charming Basque neighbors. Carlos created the modern nation of Spain, and then bribed the German Electors with new world gold and silver to make him the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. Once bitten, twice shy--the Germans never repeated that mistake.
This is a part of a process which has been going on since 1945. Anyone who cannot see that is ignorant, or a fool or both. There truly is nothing new under the sun.
@Setanta,
I've always been interested in this, from my very youth onwards.
The state now known as
Germany was unified as a modern nation-state only in 1871, but even then it was nothing similar like today.
My native town - as the example which led to said interest - was at first part of a Saxon stem duchy, then of the county known as Werl-Arnsberg, which later was occupied by the archbishop of Cologne and became the Duchy of Westphalia after the Investiture Controversy in the 12th century.
In 1802 we became part of the Landgraviate of Hesse-Darmstadt, in 1815 Prussian.
Today South Westphalia ("Südwestfalen"), which consists mainly of the old Cologne Westphalian duchy, has an industrial region which "is one of the oldest and most successful in Europe and has been one of Germany’s favourite areas for outdoor activities and holidays for decades"
source.)
I confess to not looking at the colonialism of Europeans (originally on their own continent) until much later in my historical reading. Initially, I was interested in ancient history, as a study in origins. That lead me to Roman history, which is actually a study of the most coherent and successful empire in history, despite the silly popular notions about the Roman empire. From there I progressed to the formation of England and France, and then Spain and Germany. It was in that progression that I quickly recognized the consequences of colonialism, and it's collapse. After all, the breakdown of the Congo, the crisis in Aden, the Biafran war and the East Pakistan/Bangladesh war were current events of my youth. As I learned how nation states were cobbled together in Europe, the pieces just fell into place.
Spain was a particularly interesting story, from the Roman and Carthaginian occupation and wars, through the Germanic invasions, the Muslim/Berber invasions, the chaos of the Vandal/Visigothic kingdoms (even England got sucked into that with Edward of Woodstock and John of Gaunt) to the reconquista and the eventual creation of Spain by Isabella and Ferdinand, and their grandson Carlos. Lots of bizarre personalities there--like Pedro the Cruel who suckered Edward of Woodstock into coming to Castile. Isabella, Ferdinand, Catalina, Juana la loca and Carlos are the big stars, in my never humble opinion. They sowed destruction and chaos throughout Europe, and with reckless abandon, helped to seriously injure the Catholic church about which they were so fanatical--especially in England and Germany.
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
... But as the dictum has it, people who forget their history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.
However,since the "victors" write the history for posterity, the victors believe they made few mistakes. Any mistakes made can be repeated, since they were hidden in the official version of the victors' history.
I do think that it actually is more and goes further back than noted in this opinion:
As Germany and Spain prove, history – with all its wounds – is not over
But it describes the current situation were well.
Quote:Isaiah Berlin once wrote that nationalism feeds on a sense of wounded pride and humiliation. As Europe tries to sort itself out and prepare for the future – including through grassroots “democratic conventions” due next year across the continent – it would do well to pay closer attention to those wounds left by history. We thought that they had healed – but they really haven’t.
@izzythepush,
Today (Sunday) again, tens of thousands of people took to the streets of Catalonia's capital Barcelona to express their opposition to any declaration of independence from Spain.
@Walter Hinteler,
There’s some crazy **** going on in Catalonia today. Twitter is filled with pictures from the scene of busloads coming in to Catalonia, groups making Nazi salutes.
Hard to see who’s who and hard to know who’s pulling strings.
I guess it’ll shake out soon, and hopefully, we can find responsible reporting.
Will wait for a translation of Mario Vargas Llosa’s speech in Barcelona.
More than 350,000 people demonstrated against the secession of Catalonia today in Barcelona.
(Societat Civil Catalana claimed 950,000 marched but police put the figure at 350,000.)
@Lash,
Lash wrote: groups making Nazi salutes.
Really? To what I know and what I have watched on tv, some Falange thugs were lining up by the Spanish colours, giving a fascist salute. But that was yesterday, and in Madrid, so you might have got sources I didn't get.
@Lash,
Lash wrote:Will wait for a translation of Mario Vargas Llosa’s speech in Barcelona.
Would be nice if you post that translation after you got it.
What had been widely quoted was that he said ""Spanish democracy is here and there, no separatist conspiracy will destroy it."
@Walter Hinteler,
Yes. My poor Spanish was able to pick out the headline. I’m very interested in his argument.
I almost always lean to the side of local self-determination which- unless there is an overriding, better solution - I support as a default position.
However, I’m always open to any better solution.
I’ve respected Llosa before, his passion and dedication for what he considered to be the best path. My mind isn’t closed to alternate opinions.
Is yours? 😏
@Lash,
Mario Vargas Llosa is a member of the Popular Party (PP), so his opinion here isn't of any surprise. He's a conservative.
I'm neither surprised about what you called above "local self-determination" nor that the citizens of this region have disregarded the possible consequences.
@Walter Hinteler,
I've thought a bit about your "local self-determination".
So that regional autonomy is granted, that isn't enough for you?
Do you think that every section of a population of a country, who discovers some form of common identity, can derive from that fact that they want to live in their own independent country?
Nations aren't just there - they are made, grew over centuries.
Of course, it is possible to come up with the idea that the national movements made a mistake in the 18th and 19th centuries and that we should actually go back to the small states.
I believe that overcoming small states was an act of modernisation and emancipation.
Particularism poisons the relations between people and states, not just the economy.
@Walter Hinteler,
I take back my early-on enthusiasm for Catalonia going ahead with leaving; I plain don't know enough, lost my sureness, and am now seeing Walter's points. I'll be quiet and read along.
The Partido Popular ("People's Party") led by Mariano Rajoy in Madrid, was, after Franco's death, a party of former Francoists (i.e. Fascists), and is widely regarded as the political arm of Opus Dei. That is widely known in Catalunya where people have long memories. No difficulty for me in deciding which side to support, even if I had never been to Catalunya and did not know any Catalans. In an anti-Catalan-independence rally in Madrid, Fascist salutes were seen.
