On Judaism

I'll be gone for a while anyway so I may or may not get back to anything addresses to me before monday.

Dauer

And it sounds like you've missed my point. It doesn't end there. In Judaism, the word Torah can mean all of our religious writing, sometimes including mystical texts. We are far from sola scriptura. That is why many of the views of God I named were outside of the Torah and outside of the Tanakh.

If you would take Christianity in light of the New Testament, why not take Judaism in light of its other texts?

Dauer

Not really. Do you want me to say that I disagree with the perception of God shared by the various biblical authors? I do. But what does that have to do with the Jewish God?

As I have said, the Torah never stopped being written.

Each generation adds their own insight. This has nothing to do with the perceptions of gods of other religions. This has to do with how each generation has seen God, God transcending all of these definitions.

The biblical view of God ended as soon as the bible was written down. After that the view of God continued to change as the people's perception changed. You seem unable to grasp that.

Well....actually....anyone, Jew, non-observant Jew, and/or non-Jew who reads the Torah...and who reads it with an open mind...comes away with the impression that the god described there is a great deal more than bloodthirsty, arbitrary, silly and demonic.

The god is jealous, vindictive, quick to anger, slow to forgive, petty, murderous, barbaric, and so much, much more.

The God of Genesis is different from the God of the Prophets who is different from the God of the psalmist who is different from the God of the Talmud who is different from the God of the mystics of Tzfat who is different from the mystic Abulafia's God who is different from Maimonides' God who is different from Heschel's God who is different from Morechai Kaplan's God who is different from Kushner's God etc.

But God never changes. It is just these peoples' perception of God that changes.

Well, Dauer...we really are not talking about perceptions of the god of the Bible here...rather we are talking about the god of the Bible.

There is a huge difference.

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As I have said, the Torah never stopped being written.

Horseshyt.

The Torah is the first five books of the Bible.

If you want to bring up Talmud or any of that other stuff...do so. We can discuss that. But you are not going to pull off nonsense like "the Torah never stopped being written."

Rubbish!

Deal with what the Torah descibes...or acknowledge that you are not up to the task.

You seem unable to grasp that I am not interested in people's perceptions of the god, because almost immediately Jews started to kiss this god's ass and pretend the god was not the monster the Torah shows it to be.

And I responded:
Well, Dauer...we really are not talking about perceptions of the god of the Bible here...rather we are talking about the god of the Bible.

There is a huge difference.

Now we are right back to square one...and you want to pass this off on my lack of understanding.

If you didn't have anything worthwhile to contribute...why didn't you just drop it. Playing this idiotic game is absurd.

I am willing to discuss the god descibed in the first five books of the Bible. If you want to do that...let's do it. If you don't...just tell me that you don't...but don't start this "perceptions" crap...because it ain't gonna fly.

Well....actually....anyone, Jew, non-observant Jew, and/or non-Jew who reads the Torah...and who reads it with an open mind...comes away with the impression that the god described there is a great deal more than bloodthirsty, arbitrary, silly and demonic.

The god is jealous, vindictive, quick to anger, slow to forgive, petty, murderous, barbaric, and so much, much more.

Frank, dauer:

I really see you debating past one another.

Please, Frank, there are nuances of which dauer posts that are valid.

"Can't we all just get along?" :wink:

Yes...we can get along. :wink:

I believe that we ALL can get along.................Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist and agnostic, (have I left anyone out?) if we all learn to respect a person's right to believe as his/her own conscience dictates.

Frank- Oh, have a great holiday, Frank, and lighten up!

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And, for most non-observant Jews, G-d can't be the G-d of the Torah, because that indicates to them that G-d is bloodthirsty and arbitrary and silly and even demonic.

I've never come across an educated Jew who feels that way. For me, all of the different views of God are just different ways people have come to understand God. They can offer insight, especially midrashically. The Torah is a living text.

dauer wrote:

I'll be gone for a while anyway so I may or may not get back to anything addresses to me before monday.

Dauer

Well, Dauer...we really are not talking about perceptions of the god of the Bible here...rather we are talking about the god of the Bible.

There is a huge difference.

I will acknowledge this:

The first 200 pages of (what Christians call) the Old Testament (the Torah) pretty much detail what the god of the Bible says and does.

The next 1000 pages detail what different humans have to say about that god. (Almost time for that old joke: 3 Jews; 6 opinions!)

In any case, the Torah pretty much describes a god that is jealous, absurdly demanding, petty, violent, murderous, barbaric, quick to anger, slow to forgive, vengeful, revenge driven, oppressive and who knows what else all.

The other 1000 pages of the OT are stories of Hebrews falling all over themselves and everyone else talking about how much they adore this god...and thanking the god for damn near everything that ever happens...which mostly is the slaughter of enemies.

I am willing to test this if you want.

Let each of us go to the Torah...and pick out stories where the god is an essential ingredient in the story...and is actually on the spot doing or talking.

I will point out every instance I can find where the god is either threatening someone; killing someone or ordering someone to kill someone else; destroying something; or setting up laws that have death or torture as a punishment for violation.

You point out every instance where the god is being kind and loving and understanding of the human predicament.

Let's see who's list is longer.

Why don't you start.

I know of one you might use on your list...but I just about defy you to find a second.

In the meantime, I can probably make a list a mile long.



That is just the way it is, Dauer.

The god described in the Bible is not a very likeable god.

All of this was why there was a need for the new testament. It's like a five thousand year old game of "good cop, bad cop"

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Rubbish!

Deal with what the Torah descibes...or acknowledge that you are not up to the task.

I think I said already that I don't agree with the biblical perception of God. I don't believe God ever interferes with the laws of physics. If it says, "God did this." I say, "Why was it written that way?"