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dauer wrote:

Moishe3rd wrote:

To be properly contentious and obstreperous, the Orthodox Jews are the only ones with staying power. Therefore, ergo, we will be the last men (and women) standing in the end.
There are very few (none?) grandchildren of Reform or secular Jews.

Hey! I had to look one of those words up!

I disagree with you that only the Orthodox have staying power. I do believe that only those Jews who cleave to the mitzvot, cleanly rejecting the mitzvot they do only after much wrestling, finding spiritual life in Judaism without rejecting the great big world around them, will be the liberal Jews who remain through the generations religiously Jewish. It just takes a little Renewal -- I'm not endorsing everything the movement does, but am endorsing the change they're bringing in liberal spirituality.

I'm worried that Orthodoxy is going to spiral further and further away from the rest of the world, one s'yag after another. The lack of spirituality among many liberal Jews saddens me. I don't approve of the general Reform approach, which ultimately seems to push people away from the mitzvot. But then again, they're turning around and are now affirming the mitzvot more than they used to. They realize they are not dirty.

Now there are liberal mikvahs in major cities. I've seen from an agenda that the Renewal Jews are suggesting rabbis look for candidates for different positions in a liberal Jewish community, ones for every single position in the Orthodox community from scribe to the group that prepares the dead.

So my forecast is this:

"It is a tree of life for those who hold fast to it..."

as long as it can serve as a spiritual path.

Dauer

ForeverYoung wrote:

dauer wrote:
So my forecast is this:

"It is a tree of life for those who hold fast to it..."

as long as it can serve as a spiritual path.

Dauer

Perhaps this page will be of some interest to those participating and/or following this discussion of Judaism. I will post its final paragraph and the link to the page.

Quote:
May our words find expression in holy actions. It is appropriate that a religious document, which looks to the infusion of kedushah, holiness, in our lives, should conclude with a prayer that we be successful in accomplishing that difficult goal.. Though the composition and passing of the Pittsburgh Principles was itself a major accomplishment, it will ultimately be for naught if it does not become a spur for Reform Jews to examine our beliefs and practices, to dedicate ourselves to ongoing, serious Jewish learning, and to a lifelong dialogue with God, with the Torah, and with the People Israel. This commentary is intended to encourage all Reform Jews to enter into dialogue with the statements of the Pittsburgh Principles, and to resolve to use them to enhance the kedushah of their lives wherever they may dwell. Ken yehi ratzon-May it be God's will that we succeed.

Commentary from The Central Conference of American Rabbis

What the heck.
A new thread is needed to simply discuss Judaism.

My initial contribution is more of the above.

It has been my experience, CCAR not withstanding, that those "denominations" of Judaism that are not Torah observant (Orthodox in terms of accepting Torah and miztvos as a way of life) place a very, very low emphasis on G-d and the Torah.

I have run the gamut from secular Judaism and Reform, to Conservative Judaism and now to "Orthodox" Judaism.
I have seen little change in non-observant Jews and their relationship to what, is after all, the essence of Judaism - G-d and the Torah.
For most non-observant Jews, the Torah is a cultural guideline, not the Words of Hashem.
And, for most non-observant Jews, G-d can't be the G-d of the Torah, because that indicates to them that G-d is bloodthirsty and arbitrary and silly and even demonic.
I believe this perception comes directly from ignorance of one the basic tenets of Judaism, which is to study Torah and learn what it means.
Which is why I have found, in my own personal experience, that non-observant Jews are perfectly willing to discard Judaism as irrelevant and inconvenient.
So it goes...

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Re: On Judaism

Moishe3rd wrote:

It has been my experience, CCAR not withstanding, that those "denominations" of Judaism that are not Torah observant (Orthodox in terms of accepting Torah and miztvos as a way of life) place a very, very low emphasis on G-d and the Torah.

Agreed.

Quote:

For most non-observant Jews, the Torah is a cultural guideline, not the Words of Hashem.

Agreed.

Quote:

Which is why I have found, in my own personal experience, that non-observant Jews are perfectly willing to discard Judaism as irrelevant and inconvenient.

That depends on how one defines Judaism. I use the broader definition of the Jew as a culture and a people, not merely a religion. I have discarded Judaism per se, however, I will NEVER discard my people.

Two quotes which I love:

From the movie, "Gentlemen's Agreement" ... "I will identify as a Jew for as long as it remains a disadvantage to do so."

From Letty C. Pogrebin, after experiencing horrific anti-Semitism at a world conference on feminism ... "In a perfect world, Israel need not exist. In this world, Israel must exist."

So, I guess you can categorize me as a proud Jew (please note the Jewish jokes I posted in the Humor Forum, topic started by Frank Apisa ... none were the typical self-loathing ones that make me cringe) who believes I am passing that identity down through my children and so on, but that it doesn't necessarily take Judaism to do it. It takes a 'Jewish identity.'

Well, I guess I've answered my own question. I don't like organized religion, I don't know that there is a God (but, I doubt it) AND I consider myself a Jew.

Go figure ... :wink:

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Re: On Judaism

Quote:

It has been my experience, CCAR not withstanding, that those "denominations" of Judaism that are not Torah observant (Orthodox in terms of accepting Torah and miztvos as a way of life) place a very, very low emphasis on G-d and the Torah.

It has been my experience that anyone who is not Torah observant places a low emphasis on Torah, but Torah observant does not have to mean "do the way the Orthodox do." There are other ways to approach these things.

Quote:

I have run the gamut from secular Judaism and Reform, to Conservative Judaism and now to "Orthodox" Judaism.
I have seen little change in non-observant Jews and their relationship to what, is after all, the essence of Judaism - G-d and the Torah.

I agree with you. If they are non-observant they will continue to care little about Judaism. It's all about transforming Judaism into a valid spiritual path in the conciousness of these non-observant Jews. If they leave Judaism to find spirituality somewhere else, it's because they don't realize what they have.

Quote:

For most non-observant Jews, the Torah is a cultural guideline, not the Words of Hashem.

It's not a cultural guideline or the Word of Hashem for me. It's a guide to finding the spiritual in all parts of my life. For non-observant Jews, I don't think it even is a cultural guideline. If it were, they'd be more observant. It's more of some book they have no use for.

Quote:

And, for most non-observant Jews, G-d can't be the G-d of the Torah, because that indicates to them that G-d is bloodthirsty and arbitrary and silly and even demonic.

I've never come across an educated Jew who feels that way. For me, all of the different views of God are just different ways people have come to understand God. They can offer insight, especially midrashically. The Torah is a living text.

Quote:

I believe this perception comes directly from ignorance of one the basic tenets of Judaism, which is to study Torah and learn what it means.

I agree with you. There are many gods in Judaism, and they are all the same God.

Quote:

Which is why I have found, in my own personal experience, that non-observant Jews are perfectly willing to discard Judaism as irrelevant and inconvenient.

If they're non-observant, they've already discarded Judaism as irrelevant and inconvenient! I'm not talking about non-observant Jews. I'm talking about the Jews in the liberal denominations who care about Judaism, the ones who are showing that spirituality in Judaism is entirely valid even if you're not orthodox.

Dauer

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3 Jews: a multiplicity of opinions. I love it: toda raba! :wink:

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I'm a goy following this discussion with great interest. I must say that
much of what Moishe3rd and Dauer are saying about the Torah as a living
text resonates very strongly with me. Thank you for this thread!

My special thanks to Dauer, who wrote on the thread this inherits from:

"Belief is what defines a Christian, but a Jew could better be defined by a
general sense of awe."

Tho I am a Christian, I think that that sense of awe is the starting point
and core of my relationship with God.

So ironically, I must thank you for the best Christmas present I will get
this year!

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"George" ..... sorry you found nothing of worth in my posts on the original or on this thread, but, hey, you are definitely welcome for the nice Jewish boy, Jesus.

:wink:

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George wrote:

I'm a goy following this discussion with great interest. I must say that
much of what Moishe3rd and Dauer are saying about the Torah as a living
text resonates very strongly with me.

George, it's so true. I think anyone who finds meaning in their religion will feel the same way. If a book is a means of encountering the Divine, then it must be full of life, and it will be. It is once a sacred text is viewed as stagnant, dead, and no longer relevant by a person that it has no meaning. And sometimes I think people will view a text this way specifically so that they don't have to confront it, and in doing so confront themselves.

Quote:

My special thanks to Dauer, who wrote on the thread this inherits from:

"Belief is what defines a Christian, but a Jew could better be defined by a
general sense of awe."

Tho I am a Christian, I think that that sense of awe is the starting point
and core of my relationship with God.

You're very welcome. I didn't mean to imply that awe of God is exclusively Jewish or that it is not found in Christianity, just that belief that anything particular happened or in a particular definition of God or anything else concrete is not needed in Judaism. Awe is much more important. I think most spiritual people do find the Divine through awe and wonder, and that is what makes them so spiritual.

Actually, I will ask you too. Have you heard of Abraham Joshua Heschel? He was a Jewish theologian who was very big on wonder. Some of his books are geared more towards dealing with Judaism, but others are just about man and God. It sounds like you already have that knowing, but his stuff would help affirm you and offer greater articulation. This is actually one of his books for people of all faiths:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374513287/qid=1103738161/sr=8-4/ref=pd_csp_4/103-9426491-5215040?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It's called Man Is not Alone: A Philosophy of Religion. You can read an excerpt through Amazon and also read the reviews.

Dauer

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ForeverYoung wrote:

"George" ..... sorry you found nothing of worth in
my posts on the original or on this thread, but, hey, you are definitely
welcome for the nice Jewish boy, Jesus.
:wink:

Please don't think that.
I have certainly found worth in your posts on this thread. I envy you
your strong sense of belonging to your people despite religious
differences and the ease with which you accept diversity of opinion.
It's a wonderful change from the rancor that I find in so many discussions
of religion on this forum.

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George wrote:

ForeverYoung wrote:
"George" ..... sorry you found nothing of worth in my posts on this thread,
but, hey, you are definitely welcome for the nice Jewish boy,
Jesus. :wink:

Please don't think that.

I have certainly found worth in your posts on this thread. I envy you
your strong sense of belonging to your people despite religious
differences and the ease with which you accept diversity of opinion.
It's a wonderful change from the rancor that I find in so many discussions
of religion on this forum.

Oh, thank you: I greatly appreciate your coming back to the thread and posting the above!

In my opinion, the rancor to which you refer is generated by the closed-mindedness of people who have tremendous ego investment in a particular belief system. That would explain the phenomenon occurring so often in discussions of religion and politics.

It is easier, of course, to be so invested as to let a hierarchical structure or paradigm form one's own opinions, however, I've never been known to take the easy way out. :wink:

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Nice sentiments George. Merry Christmas!
(Actually, the name I go by, that is to say, I was born with, is George...)
Dauer, you're an interesting guy.
(You are too ForeverYoung... well, not a guy I suppose)
Dauer,
You wrote something before with the word Renewal in it. Is that a "branch" of Judaism?
If it is, or even if it's not, do you have a synagogue that you attend? Or a group that you identify with?
I ask because you seem to know and learn quite a bit for someone who professes not to be "Orthodox." I would venture a guess that if you are part of a larger Jewish group, that most of your co-relgionists are not as knowledgeable or interested as you are...
That is what I was writing before. I can't see how you can pass on being Jewish in any form if you not actively pursuing Judaism.
And, it has definitely been my experience that those who are not Torah observant are not actively pursuing Judaism.
Do you ever listen to Dennis Prager? He is an interesting case.

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Moishe3rd wrote:

Dauer,
You wrote something before with the word Renewal in it. Is that a "branch" of Judaism?

Nope. Even better. Jewish Renewal considers itself "post-denominational" although they do have some affiliated shuls these days. It began with Bnai Or, if you know the name, also finds roots in the Havurah movement. Basically, it was a bunch of gays, feminists, hippies, and some ex-hasidim getting together to create a meaningfully spiritual Judaism that fully embraced the modern world and sought to renew traditional practice by experimenting with different forms of chant, prayer, meditation, etc. This is not what the movement looks like, but what it will consider to enrich its experience.

The "rebbe" of this movement, which is also called neo-hasidism at times, is know as Zalman Shachter-Shalomi. He was a very successful rabbi for Chabad, working on campuses, but he got too radical and the rebbe kicked him out. Reb Zalman isn't a rebbe in the traditional sense, but just that he is a very spiritual man who has inspired many people.

Some of the movement goes too far from the mitzvot, but this is on the fringe. The shul I go to has very traditional services besides the cunga, short meditation before davenen, and the fact that they have chantable English translation which they encourage Hebrew illiterates to chant with instead. Mostly everyone prays in Hebrew. There are also frequent niggunim. Shlomo Carlebach is also a father of the movement. You can read some of Reb Zalman's writings here if you'd like:

http://www.ohalah.org/rebzalmanohalah.htm

He's a troublemaker. There's a dialogue between him and an Orthodox Jew I found on an Orthodox site you may be interested in. I haven't purchased it yet but it sounds very good.

http://www.devekut.com/dialogue.html

He wrote a book called Paradigm Shift, suggesting the Holocaust and our brush with modernity is just as much reason for one as the Exile. He's prayed with Sikhs and Sufis, but he also seems commited to the mitzvot. I know that must sound like a huge contradiction to you.

Quote:

If it is, or even if it's not, do you have a synagogue that you attend?

http://www.tbzbrookline.org/

Reb Moshe Waldoks went to a Yiddische Yeshiva. He co-authored the Big Book of Jewish Humor. He met the Dalai Llama. Now he is our rabbi. Baruch Hashem! I love the kavanah there. They redesigned the sanctuary. Now the bimah is very low up until the step before the ark. The rabbi sits in a chair facing us at our level, and not up high. They took out the pews and put in comfortable folding chairs. We pray with so much ruach that I no longer realize my praying. I become the prayer.

Quote:

Or a group that you identify with?

I don't really consider myself a Renewal Jew. I consider myself a Jew. But as time goes by I am becoming more and more of a neo-hasid. Baruch Hashem! Wink

Quote:

I ask because you seem to know and learn quite a bit for someone who professes not to be "Orthodox." I would venture a guess that if you are part of a larger Jewish group, that most of your co-relgionists are not as knowledgeable or interested as you are...

No no my friend. If someone is a Renewal Jew it is because they care about Judaism on more than just a cultural level. They are looking for spirituality. This will look different for different people, but the way I look at it, Zalman never abandoned the Chabad mission. He just renewed it. And there are renewal Jews in all of the liberal movements, even those who don't attend renewal shuls. We're dedicated in our commitment to a spiritual Jewish life that doesn't hide away from the world. That's not a dig, but I do guess I could have said it differently.

Quote:

That is what I was writing before. I can't see how you can pass on being Jewish in any form if you not actively pursuing Judaism.

Agreed! I just don't think most liberal Jews are aware of the goods. By going away from them, you take that spirituality away with you. Renewal makes it visible to the disillusioned youth, the gays, the polyamorists, the wiccan Jews, the JewBus, the activists, the families, the couples, the elderly. It's a shame we aren't more visible. And because it's not a movement, each community will define itself in the spirit of the havurah movement. They'll all be a little different. Based on the other Renewal shul I've visited I'd say they entirely take on the personality of the rabbi.

Quote:

And, it has definitely been my experience that those who are not Torah observant are not actively pursuing Judaism.

And my experience is that as long as we are wrestling with God, with the mitzvot, learning our peace with them, then we are thoroughly engaged in our Judaism. As Arthur Waskow points out, the grips of a wrestle are only inches from a loving embrace.

Quote:

Do you ever listen to Dennis Prager? He is an interesting case.

No, I'm not familiar with Dennis Prager.

Oh, and for some clarity, this is the aleph statement of values and such:

http://www.aleph.org/principles.html

Dauer

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One more link, a liberal mikveh near me:

http://www.mayyimhayyim.org/

One more time: Baruch Hashem!

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dauer wrote:

And my experience is that as long as we are wrestling with God, with the mitzvot, learning our peace with them, then we are thoroughly engaged in our Judaism. As Arthur Waskow points out, the grips of a wrestle are only inches from a loving embrace.

That is much closer to my experience as well (not that anyone asked ... LOL).

Living as a Jew is behaving as a Jew. Performing mitzvot is completely consistent with the culture.

* bowing out, but still 'observing' :wink: again *

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Moishe

I've read over your opening notes...and I have these comments (I doubt I need mention that I am a non-Jew:

Quote:

And, for most non-observant Jews, G-d can't be the G-d of the Torah, because that indicates to them that G-d is bloodthirsty and arbitrary and silly and even demonic.

Well....actually....anyone, Jew, non-observant Jew, and/or non-Jew who reads the Torah...and who reads it with an open mind...comes away with the impression that the god described there is a great deal more than bloodthirsty, arbitrary, silly and demonic.

The god is jealous, vindictive, quick to anger, slow to forgive, petty, murderous, barbaric, and so much, much more.

Those qualities are understandable, because all indications are that the god is an invention of ancient Hebrews...and they were not stupid. They needed a jealous, bloodthirsty, vindictive, arbitrary, quick to anger, slow to forgive, murderous, barbaric god to protect themselves from the jealous, bloodthirsty, vindictive, arbitrary, quick to anger, slow to forgive, murderous, barbaric gods of their perceived enemies...which seems to be damn near everyone else on the planet. (The acorn does not fall far from the tree!)

Quote:

I believe this perception comes directly from ignorance of one the basic tenets of Judaism, which is to study Torah and learn what it means.

I suspect it more likely comes from an unwillingness to rationalize the unrationalizable...and an unwillingness to listen to the rationalizations of others who have spent lifetimes rationalizing the conduct of the god of the Torah.

Quote:

Which is why I have found, in my own personal experience, that non-observant Jews are perfectly willing to discard Judaism as irrelevant and inconvenient.

Most of the "non-observant" Jews that I know....and I have known dozens...are perfectly willing to discard the god and mythology of the Torah as irrelevant and inconvenient...but I have never known one who would discard their Judaism. In fact, one of their most admirable traits, in my opinion, is the fact that they retain justifiable pride in their Judaism.

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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
And, for most non-observant Jews, G-d can't be the G-d of the Torah, because that indicates to them that G-d is bloodthirsty and arbitrary and silly and even demonic.

Well....actually....anyone, Jew, non-observant Jew, and/or non-Jew who reads the Torah...and who reads it with an open mind...comes away with the impression that the god described there is a great deal more than bloodthirsty, arbitrary, silly and demonic.

The god is jealous, vindictive, quick to anger, slow to forgive, petty, murderous, barbaric, and so much, much more.

Those qualities are understandable, because all indications are that the god is an invention of ancient Hebrews...and they were not stupid. They needed a jealous, bloodthirsty, vindictive, arbitrary, quick to anger, slow to forgive, murderous, barbaric god to protect themselves from the jealous, bloodthirsty, vindictive, arbitrary, quick to anger, slow to forgive, murderous, barbaric gods of their perceived enemies...which seems to be damn near everyone else on the planet. (The acorn does not fall far from the tree!)

Oy vey izmir, Frank...
I admit with chagrin that I was unconciously quoting you when I wrote the above.
Embarrassed

At some point when I have more time, I shall rebut per the usual, but the thing is, to repeat myself (and Dauer) once again,
The Torah is NOT the bible that you are reading.
The Torah is several thousand years of trying to understand G-d and how our world works.
It is much, much, much, much, and a few more too, more than what you peruse as the bible....
It is huge, mon, jus' huge......
Smile

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Happy Hannuka, my friend.

Peace...in a very troubled world.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Happy Hannuka.

Chanukah ended a week ago.

Shalom to the entire universe.

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I meant for next year! :wink:

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Frank Apisa wrote:

I meant for next year! :wink:

Wow, such a planner! I'm impressed. :wink: Twisted Evil

:wink:

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Frank,

Let me explain it this way.

In the Amidah, we say, "God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob." We do not say, "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Why? Because they were three different people and each approached God differently.

The God of Genesis is different from the God of the Prophets who is different from the God of the psalmist who is different from the God of the Talmud who is different from the God of the mystics of Tzfat who is different from the mystic Abulafia's God who is different from Maimonides' God who is different from Heschel's God who is different from Morechai Kaplan's God who is different from Kushner's God etc.

But God never changes. It is just these peoples' perception of God that changes.

I'm not trying to change your mind. I know you're a hardcore agnostic. Just explaining why Judaism doesn't get stuck in, "Oh no God of the bible angry boogy man."

I'll be gone for a while anyway so I may or may not get back to anything addresses to me before monday.

Dauer

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