Time for Rumsfeld to go.

Guess so.

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'Yet another soldier asked, without putting it to Rumsfeld as a direct criticism, how much longer the Army will continue using its "stop loss" power to prevent soldiers from leaving the service who are otherwise eligible to retire or quit.

Rumsfeld said that this condition was simply a fact of life for soldiers at time of war.

"It's basically a sound principle, it's nothing new, it's been well understood" by soldiers, he said. "My guess is it will continue to be used as little as possible, but that it will continue to be used."'

This is "Catch 22" come to life. A major theme in that movie was the continuous raising of missions before you were eligible to go home. What Rumsfeld was really thinking when he replied to the soldier was, "Sit down and shut up, cannon fodder." The enlisted man is so much **** to this administration, and they've been fooled into thinking that they're anything else. What can you expect? They're only kids. Their parents should have educated them. Didn't they learn anything from the Vietnam war?

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coluber2001 wrote:

Didn't they learn anything from the Vietnam war?

What lesson from Vietnam do you mean?

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coluber2001 wrote:

The enlisted man is so much **** to this administration, and they've been fooled into thinking that they're anything else.

The soldiers probably felt that by raising these issues to Rumsfeld that he would be genuinely concerned and immediately set out to address their issues but instead received a cold and unsympathetic response. I can imagine the abrupt drop in morale in that hangar after learning of their leader's indifference to their situation.

It appears their status as cannon fodder has been confirmed. While it comes as no surprise it is surprising that Rumsfeld actually let it slip. The damage control is already out.

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The people who really need to know about this are the young ones the Army is trying to recruit. I'm not saying they shouldn't join, but they'd better know what they're getting themselves into...

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sozobe wrote:

Yup yup yup.

I do think that we're at a point where we can't just up and leave -- we need to fix the mess we made, if minimally (i.e. not that we have to make everything perfect, but get things to the point where it won't be utter chaos if we leave.)

But completely agreed about doing what it takes to get the troops the resources they need.

I agree, but unfortunately we are NOT going to fix it...we will just eventually elect someone with enough brains, common sense and moral
fibre to end the thing.

I certainly agree with woiyo on this point.

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The distance between what we are being told and the reality of what's really going on is becoming increasingly wider.

Rumsfeld & Co. would like us to believe that these are "isolated incidences" but these incidences are becoming far too frequent to be isolated. Soldiers refusing missions due to lack of proper equipment, mothers mailing their sons body armor, now more charges of insufficient armor show the reality of the situation.

I expect a silent "crackdown" by the military brass on soldiers talking to the media as it is tarnishing their posture that all is well.

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Here's one view of what's really going on:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20041208/cartoon20041208.gif

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Here is another wonderful commentary on the many benefits of georges Big Iraqi adventure

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041207-121848-6449r.htm

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http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041209/D86RQ7KG0.html

What is amazing are the apoligists who actually AGREED with Rumsfeld's condecending comments to our troops yesterday.

""You go to war with the Army you have," Rumsfeld replied, "not the Army you might want or wish to have."

Yes, when YOU are attacked. Yet , with Iraq, there was no reason that this govt could have WAITED and went to war with the ARMY YOU NEED.

"Spc. Thomas Wilson had asked the defense secretary, "Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to up-armor our vehicles?" Shouts of approval and applause arose from the estimated 2,300 soldiers who had assembled to see Rumsfeld.

Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.

Was the question too tough for him to understand that our boys have to go through the GARBAGE!!

Rummy says - ""You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can (still) be blown up,"

It has nothing to do with "production". During WW2 we turned around assembly line in DAYS to produce the ARMY WE NEEDED.

Yet when you go the the AM GENERAL web site, they seem to be doing a fine job on the RETAIL SIDE of production.

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Americans are too afriad to open their eyes.....which is the whole idea.... the current administration doesn't give a rats ass, nor have they lost one second of sleep, nor do they feel any personal connection WHATSOEVER with the American troops they have sent to this stupid, wasteful, sinful "retail takeover disguised as war", IMO.

As I have goten older, my strong beliefs in Heaven and Hell have weakened, but these people in Washington renew my hope that there is a hell and they will meet their opposite numbers i.e. Bin Laden, Hussein, Hitler, etc. there one day.

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This already been posted?

From today's Washington Post (Full story here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46508-2004Dec8.html?referrer=email )

Rumsfeld Gets Earful From Troops
Complaints Cite Equipment Woes, Extended Tours and Pay Delays

By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 9, 2004; Page A01

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, speaking in Kuwait yesterday to troops deploying into Iraq, got an earful of complaints about poor combat equipment, personnel policies that keep soldiers in the Army beyond their terms of enlistment, and other issues that reflect the strains the war in the Middle East is placing on the U.S. military.

In one of the exchanges during the town-hall-style meeting, Spec. Thomas Wilson complained that he and his comrades were rooting through junkyards to find improvised armor for their military vehicles to protect against bomb blasts and small-arms attacks.

"A lot of us are getting ready to move north relatively soon," said Wilson, an airplane mechanic with the Tennessee Army National Guard, according to a transcript of the meeting released by the Pentagon. "Our vehicles are not armored. We're digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass that's already been shot up . . . picking the best out of this scrap to put on our vehicles to take into combat. We do not have proper . . . vehicles to carry with us north."

Rumsfeld replied: "As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

He added: "If you think about it, you can have all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can be blown up."

Another soldier, from a logistical support unit based at Fort Bragg, N.C., complained that she was being kept in the Army against her wishes by a Pentagon "stop-loss" order.

"It is something you prefer not to have to use, obviously, in a perfect world," Rumsfeld responded. "It's been used as little as possible."

When a third soldier, from the Idaho Army National Guard, complained that Guard units were being issued "antiquated" equipment inferior to that given to regular Army units, Rumsfeld said that the Army is trying to be equitable but that somebody has to get the older gear.

The one question that seemed to give Rumsfeld pause came from a lieutenant colonel who said that many of the soldiers in his unit are having trouble receiving all the pay due them, causing problems for their families back home who are being pestered by collection agencies.

"Can someone here get the details of the unit he's talking about?" Rumsfeld asked. "That's just not right."

As a whole, Rumsfeld's responses provoked a wave of criticism from congressional Democrats. Rep. Ted Strickland (D-Ohio) called Rumsfeld's remarks "callous." Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) termed them "contemptuous." Sen. Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.) labeled them "stunning."

"When I visit Iraq, I ride around in an armored vehicle, and I am sure the secretary does as well," Rep. Gene Taylor (D-Miss.) said in a statement. "If it is good enough for the big shots, it is good enough for every American soldier."

Some military experts agreed with the criticism. "Any problem mentioned, he's in denial," said retired Army Gen. Barry McCaffrey.

"Troop frustration is growing," especially as some soldiers head back to Iraq for their second occupation tour as the security situation there deteriorates, said another retired four-star general, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Officers and senior sergeants are worried, he noted, because, in his view, "we are breaking a small, great professional force."..........

I watched a fascinating documentary on Rumsfeld/Cheney/Wolfowitz last night - about the huge battles between the military and him, and how Powell weighed in...and how Rumsfeld insisted that the US could go in with very few troops - against most military advice - especially Powell's - and those who spoke out got put out of the loop - or kicked out.

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Rumsfeld is going nowhere after all he is just voicing what Bush and Cheney won't. I said before that Iraq is simply Viet Nam redux and that is being proven every day. If you remember Viet Nam it was body count that mattered. What do we hear first in the war reports. X amount of insurgents killed. I wonder who makes up the numbers. Are they based upon how many coalition members killed. Are these the moral values Bush has been touting.
Forgive me for digressing however, I needed to vent.

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Rumsfeld: Airing Concerns Was Healthy

NEW DELHI, India (AP) - A day after being challenged by a soldier on the Army's failure to provide adequate armor for vehicles used in Iraq, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Thursday he was pleased to hear the gripe and expects the Army to do its best to resolve the problem. "I think it's good" that ordinary soldiers are given a chance to express their concerns to the secretary of defense and senior military commanders, Rumsfeld told reporters during a visit to the Indian capital.

Has the man no shame? Embarrassed

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Yea, I think it is good also that soldiers have a chance to express their concerns.

The problem that Rummy does not seem to understand that gripes such as this SHOULD NEVER EXIST!!

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au1929 wrote:

Rumsfeld: Airing Concerns Was Healthy

NEW DELHI, India (AP) - A day after being challenged by a soldier on the Army's failure to provide adequate armor for vehicles used in Iraq, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Thursday he was pleased to hear the gripe and expects the Army to do its best to resolve the problem. "I think it's good" that ordinary soldiers are given a chance to express their concerns to the secretary of defense and senior military commanders, Rumsfeld told reporters during a visit to the Indian capital.

Has the man no shame?

rhetorical question right?

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Rummy is BAD (Bureaucratic Attention Deficit) on the other hand, he admits to never being wrong.

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"You go to war with the Army you have," and sadly the government that sent you there.....

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Another quote from Rumsfeild. I think the guy should go to an undisclosed location.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&e=7&u=/nm/20041209/wl_nm/iraq_shiites_dc_4

Quote:

The U.S. administration has faced criticism at home over the conduct of the war since Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld heard complaints from soldiers that they lacked armor against bombs.

Asked about a soldier who told him troops were searching scrap dumps for armor, Rumsfeld said: "I don't know what the facts are but somebody's certainly going to sit down with him and find out what he knows that they may not know, and make sure he knows what they know that he may not know.

"And that's a good thing."

I am wondering what in the world he don't know that they know or what he knows that they don't know. Shouldn't both know?

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Sounds a little like an Abbot and Costello routine. Who is on first, I don't know, No he is on third.

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Time for Rumsfeld to go.

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