Were you once a Christian?

POWs in Iraq:

Are the Iraqis asking our American and British POWs, what their religions are?

BTW - I would certainly see parallels between modern USA and Athens at the height of her power - in terms of things like government being an effective oligarchy, (with the bells and whistles of democracy being maintained and frequent rabble rousing appeals by rulers to the lowestcommon denominator and cheap patriotism), hubris, unchallenged military power being used increasingly autocratically, economic dominance being used in a bullying manner, fine traditions and features co-existing with all of these things...

Socrates was a brave soldier in the Campaign of Potidea by Athens.

religion
Thanks, Hazlitt, for one of the most thoughtful and well informed comments I've read in a very long time.

Dlowan,
It's been awhile since I studied Athenian democracy in any thorough manner. I referred to the period right before Cleisthenes, when there were series of tyrants, including some of Cleisthenes' direct relatives. They usually justified their rule on the grounds of their divinity. I will not expand however, for I would most likely make a fool out of myself. Besides, that was 2-3 centuries before Athens de facto perished, being eaten up by Alexander the Macedonian (umm, at least I think so)
But when you think about it, Spartha ended up the same way, partially vanished due to the stubborn pride and refusal to amend their relations with other cities and virtual isolation. And Rome, as an empire, which is probably even more comparable with the U.S. for its size, refused to extend the citizenship to the 'barbarians' that got incorporated into the Empire, thus alienating larger and larger groups that finally turned away and against the empire completely. The U.S. may be working on such alienation, and although I don't expect France or Russia marching against the U.S., it will make the international relations much more complicated and strained.

I was once a Christian (am I answering in the proper manner?
I am not a Christian any longer because I simply don't believe in a conscious God or saints or Mary or Archangels, etc. I believe that the only "God" is a natural reflection of the greatness of the human heart, or you might say, contained in it or the manifestations of it, in, for example, great art and literature, massive architectural works of art, in great music, social causes and justice, kindness of individuals, charity given with love, love between individuals, devotion, altruism and natural beauty and a million other things. Now I am a Reform Jew because I simply fell into it honestly because it so closely coincided with my spiritual inclinations and and because of it's deemphasation of a remote, mythical God.

Wow -- I haven't visited this thread for a while and find lots of really good posts. Hazlitt -- you may well be right. I tend to think, however, that religion as such will change mightily in not so distant future. I'm not sure that "the" secular culture has put people off but rather the form it has taken in this country. On the other hand, notice how religious culture underwrites commercialism, the supremacy of man over nature, etc.etc.

And Dag's view of an historical parallel is really interesting too.

The Bush administration is chock full of advisors who are academics, not religious, well-trained in history. Hard to believe, isn't it.

Judaism (reform, conservative) has always been very attractive. But I just can't put up with a god who is so human-oriented as in Christianity and Judaism. There's an implied childishness in that... at least for one who believes god is a human invention, not the reverse.

I know so shamefully little about judaism in general. But that alone, I think, may be a sign of something. Why is it, that I, born and raised agnostic, know so much about Christianity, its history, principles and all that up to present, and so very little about judaism, albeit there were and are many jews where I come from. I love to visit my Jewish friends for their religious holidays dinners. I like the happy celebration via food in a circle of family and friends which at those occasions seems most important, more than discussing matters of religion or whatnot. I must say I never felt that comfortable at dinners at my Christian friends dinners at religious dinners, where I felt guilty, intrusive and just plain awkward. Perhaps a mere coincidence, or my own misperception, dunno. I truly don't mean to incite any quarrels about this, I feel like an outside observer, not belonging to any 'camp' myself. But was curious to hear from others, is it, that kind of missionary, slightly invasive approach of christianity, and especially of catholic religion, in the religion itself, or is it cultural, or am i seeing the whole picture wrong?

Dag -- you've made an excellent point. Also raised an agnostic, my knowledge and comfort with Christianity came from living (as an agnostic, or more accurately an athest) in a rural area in Europe which was Catholic -- of the relaxed variety!! I've had the same experience as you with Judaism, and I think it may be for two reasons:

1. I find the Christianity (at least the Christianity I grew up with and have encountered later) in the US to be inauthentic and self-conscious. Judaism in the US seems utterly authentic and unself-conscious.

2. Judaism is a rational and "intellectual" religion, I think -- older, closer to the human experience, and more searching.

The setup of the Catholic Church will probably have something to do with it. It is the most oranized, hierarchichal church, and many Catholics grow up being socialized into it, taking it as a given. Judaism lacks that level of formal organization, I think (sigh, what do I know again) and it is more of a family socialization that takes place. Perhaps that's why it appears as more authentic, as you described it?

Dag -- yes, in part, but I emphasize the "in the US" part of my remarks (as distinct from Christianity, Prot and Cath, elsewhere), and I should have written (in that context), "Judaism is COMPARATIVELY authentic..."

Tartarin
Is it possible that your "Judaism is COMPARATIVELY authentic" is based upon the fact that Judaism does not proselytize and try to sell their religion. They do not claim that the only way to salvation or the hereafter is their way. In addition It is a religion based upon the individuals relationship to God there are no intermediaries and very little ritual.

Yes. How did you know? When we were in Tule Lake concentration camp, our mother was converted from Buddhist to christian, and guess we were kind of forced into christianity. All my siblings and their children are still christians, but I'm a atheist, and my wife is Buddhist. c.i.

I'd say that was an important part of it, Au. My first reaction to American Christianity after returning from overseas was that it was like the abridged edition of a real book, appearing now in Large Print. Or something like that! But yes, the individual relationship to God is important, with rabbis acting as moral counselors, right?

Cicerone -- and then twenty years or so later, look at the numbers of lapsed Christians who studied Buddhism -- and still do.

Tartarin
That is about it they explain the laws and at one time and I guess for the Ultra Religious still do settle disputes according to talmudic Law. As a youngster I had some exposure and was surprised to learn that the Talmud was in essence books of law including civil law.

I agree with most of what you say about Judaism, au, but not that there's very little ritual. Among the Orthodox, and to a lesser extent among Conservative and Reform, there's a lot of ritual. The ultra-Orthodox are governed by rules that determine just about everything they do during their waking hours, and a lot of ritual is involved, especially during religious observances.

The renaissance of this brand of Judaism is rather amazing, and depending on one's point of view, perhaps distressing. Some of what's going on in Israel now has everything to do with the impact of the ultra-Orthodox on how that country is governed, including how it deals with the Palestinians.

Surely so, there are orthodox groups in perhaps every religion. And surely there are Catholics that have a very private and intimate relation with the God and do not care so much for the public, or social part of their religion, but generally, it is (from my lay perspective) the most 'missionary' religion out there. Which is not to say it is wrong, for it is an integral part of that belief itself, I suppose. The reaching out to those who don't believe, to (in their eyes) save their souls, etc. And although I only know two orthodox Jew families here in the U.S., I never had the impression that is the case there. But I don't have enough experience to build on, it is just an uneducated guess.

It's true, as others have noted, that Jews generally don't seek converts. Some of the Orthodox, such as the Lubavitchers, do try to reach out to fellow Jews, but not to outsiders...

Well, it's one of those things I swore I'd learn about -- Judaism, that is. In my spare room (the room where one puts books for hypothetical overnight guests, books which one can dip into and leave behind, one hopes) is a book called the Book of Jewish Values which has some good stuff in it. How to treat visitors, among other things! Though no one could treat visitors as well as the Marsh Arabs, and look what happened to them!...