Were you once a Christian?

religion
Tartarin, very insightful post. We definitely are in transition. There remain forces in this country that would turn us into a theocracy and, thanks to Thomas Jefferson's forsight, forces for remaining a secular state. Our prayers in Congress and the "in God we trust" remnants which fundamentalists cling to do reveal the ambivalence that accompanies transition. The state must remain as secular (and strive to be as rational as possible). Bush's irrationality is not to be blamed on our governmental system, only his regime's motives and obsessions. But there is growing evidence that his international policies are rooted partly in(or rationalized by) religious considerations. And many of his supporters are putting out piles of money to Isreal's Sharon in hopes of provoking the apocalyptic war that will bring on the Rapture. And I thought those people who commited suicide in order to have their souls taken up by a space ship were nuts.

relligion
Husker, you may enjoy this. In a magazine, Philosophy Now issue #38) the protestant philosopher, Paul Tillich, is discussed and compared with Hume and Quine--a very pleasant article. Tillich was a philosopher of religion (I think. More than a theologian per se). His concept of God was of a "God above God." For him God is not approached in worldly terms. Any attempts to grasp God or prove His existence in human, cultural, linguistic, and even logical terms diminishes God. All proofs for God's existence are false, he argued all his life. Yet he was a firm believer in this God above God. This seems very Buddhist to me (but that's another story). He argues, as you did, that revelation, not reason, bestows faith and makes possible the religious life. He also argued that theologians (and I would add TV evangelists) who claim to have understood the nature of God are merely aggrandizing themselves, to use logic (and poorly indeed) in order to make themselves (their minds with their theological proofs) models for the universe. I once accused a very opinioned colleague, a system builder, that he was trying to shrink the cosmos to the size of his brain. I was wrong. I now suspect that he was trying to convince others that he had expanded his brain--metaphorically of course--the size of the universe. Zen buddhist, I believe, would tell him all his effort was wasted; that his mind has always been the size of the Cosmos (something to do with mustard seeds, I suppose). But I can understand, and accept (although you have no need for my acceptance, to your credit) that your revelation may be quite real, and that your expressions of its meaning are purely metaphorical. What else can one do? The impossibility of describing, let alone explaining, religious experience is best left, according to Tillich and others (Hume, Nietzsche, for example) to art.

husker

If god has revealed himself to you, as you say why do you continue to call it faith? If one knows that god exists faith is no longer required for now it is a knowing, at least that aspect of god that you know.

In reference to my own orientation if I have a nondual experience I no longer have a mere belief that nondualism; the oneness of all things/non-things, is the truth, I now know it as a fact.

Great comments folks, just a side note, you guys can verify or not, I don't ever recall outwardly trying to convert, condemn, or tell someone there're going to hell or whatever for not believing. Has anyone ever done any research on the old Greek culture, and tried to put it into context with today's cultural environment in the US? What caused that downfall? Are there parallels?

husker ?

Dys?

is the question "are there parallels between US today and ancient Greece? just not sure i was following the question.

Dys - yes you got it right - sorry for the confusing way I wrote the question.

Hit's not a joke - just kind a peaceful, you should have broadband or a few seconds for it to load.
Interview with God

husker the first question i would have re your question; by saying ancient greece are you refering to the city/state of Athens or Greece as a whole? btw this could be a very interesting discourse.

I was thinking mostly the Greek Culture (city\state setup) as a whole. I was thinking a lot of folks around here could or would be versed on that. Where's that darn Setana?

parallel in what sense? do you mean the moral downfall of the greek city states or the increasing tyrannical nature of their rule that was being justified on the divine grounds in the last era of their fame, not sure what kind of parallel are we searching for.

the downfall and changes that occured then that parallel to now??? yeah something like that. as americans we have this real independent streak.

ok then lets stick to Athens as the city/state without going into what happened in Sparta (another story entirely). ok?

ok - cause I don't know much and I'll look at this as a learning experience.

for starters
Brief History of Athens and its demise

I think that the is parallel is that the city/state system fails because of rugged individualism and competition. Also the uniformity of a same language, culture, and skin color which made it strong didn't permit newness to emerge. Individuals will always lose to a strong team. There must be a dynamic that allows change and inclusion of new people and ideas to keep a society going strong. I don't think that there is a society in the western world that has survived much beyond 3-4 centuries. I believe thate we are near the end without significant change and newness.

national longevity
Yes, Husker, we must always keep in mind our national mortality. We are presently in danger of a delusion of inherent national righteousness and infinite longevity.

Tartarin, I have frequently been tempted to think that Christianity and perhaps the whole religious interpretation of reality would be passing away one of these days, or years, or centuries. But I've come to doubt that this will happen. First, I notice that what one generation learns is not necessarily carried over to the next. As human beings, we seem to have to learn over and over. It takes almost forever for some things to change. Also, if religion is seen skeptically, that view is mostly among the more learned classes. There are many more unlearned who will grasp at a religious explanation simply because they do not know anything else. I don't see this situation changing anytime soon (I am not saying here that all religious people are unlearned).

However, the main reason I don't think religion will pass away soon is because of the nature of human imagination. We alone among the animals seem to have this strange power to imagine that the dead are somehow really alive, or that rocks have souls, or that the position of the stars can effect out daily lives, or that our houses are inhabited by ghosts, that some people go to heaven after death and some don't. This list could go on for several pages.

Of course we have methods of trying to arrive at "truth," and we've used these to accumulate a large body of useful facts that we believe to be verifiable. Almost all learned people acknowledge the difference between saying that a rock is hard and saying that a rock is alive. There are, however, some people on earth who can't see the difference. As long as there is any question that cannot be answered by universally agreed upon methods of verification, this curious, and indeed wonderful, faculty of imagination will come into play, and some seeming rational, but really irrational, explanation will be conjured up to answer the question. Many of these answers will be religious in nature. It is simply incredibly convenient to be able to explain the unknown by saying god created it or god willed it.

My own thought is that one reason for the current resurgence of religion is that it is filling a void left by the failure of the secular systems of the 20th century to meet the expectations and needs of humanity (Fascism, Communism, Capitalism, & Science, for example). I won't go any further with that because it is too big a topic.

It is possible that we will always have religion; although, the religion is constantly changing also to meet the changing human need.

I came late to this thread, but I read through it and and appreciated the comments by Jlnobody, Frank, Dyslexia, Tartatian and others. I can sympathize with Huskers ideas about faith, having once held similar beliefs.

Dagmar - I am unsure about your comment about Athens' increasingly tyrannical rule being justified on divine grounds - can you expand? You are discussing such events as the punishment of Mytilene, I imagine?