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libertarian...liberal...classical liberalsim...???

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 11:55 pm
None of the terms are the same, anywhere, Walter! Confused
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2004 11:59 pm
That's correct, msolga.

However, in most part of the world, the US Democrats would be rather on right side of the center (or even more rightish), but no-one would relate them to "socialist".
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 12:11 am
I hunted around the net for definitions of political terms after this morning's session, Walter. "Liberal" & "Libertarian" are very flexible, rubbery terms! Perhaps one should only talk to people in one's one country about these things? :wink: Laughing
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 12:18 am
Well, actually I'm not so sure: I still think, the term 'liberal' is not so flexible, otherwise some dozens of parties from all over the world (or those in the EU parliament) wouldn't find a single roof, as they did.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 12:27 am
The trouble is, Walter, what goes on under the "roof" can move a long, long away from the accepted understanding of the term. And each culture can interpret in a different way ... Take the Liberal Party of Oz, for example ... Rolling Eyes
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 12:48 am
Actually, I was referring to Liberal International :wink:

(The Australians - like others - seem to have difficulties with the "Liberal International manifestoes".)
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 05:10 am
Perhaps because it's the first we've heard of them? Confused (No, I'm speaking only for myself here. Others may have, for all I know ...)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 08:15 am
Just adding the obvious ... in (Western)-Europe, when we refer to "liberals" we mostly refer to what your book, jpin, probably calls "classical liberals" ... right-wing, pro-market, individualist. Mostly associated with the interests of industry and entrepeneurs. Member of the Liberal International (which by the way is a very low-profile organisation ... just a basement in London really ... don't laugh but I once applied for a job there ... didn't get it ;-))

Then again in much of Eastern Europe liberals, even when espousing the same ideology of market economy, individualism and Western orientation, are often considered centrist or even left-wing, because of how their ideas contrast with the nationalism of conservative/christian parties and populist red/brown parties.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 08:23 am
nimh wrote:
(which by the way is a very low-profile organisation ... just a basement in London really ... don't laugh but I once applied for a job there ... didn't get it ;-))


Counter espionage?








[You allow that I laugh now and here: Laughing nimh Laughing Laughing and the liberals Laughing Laughing Laughing and even applying for a job .....................]
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 08:53 am
Glad you joined in nimh... I always look for your responses to complex issues.

I think I am even more confused now.

Am I right in saying American libertarian = classical American liberalism but classical American liberalsim ? present day American liberalism?

Edited: That "?" is supposed to be a not equal sign but it doesn't show up.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 11:23 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Am I right in saying American libertarian = classical American liberalism but classical American liberalsim Not Equal present day American liberalism?

Basically, yes. I do think current-day American Libertarians take the anti-state, pro-market ideology to an extreme that classical liberals (or current-day European liberals) would not; but that those are the underlying values of their political position is what puts them in roughly the same corner. And in that they contrast with what nowdays in America are called "liberals", who if anything advocate a greater state repsonsibility and a less unfettered market.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Edited: That "?" is supposed to be a not equal sign but it doesn't show up.

If you are in the post window, you see all the emoticons to the left of your edit window, and underneath it says "view more emoticons". If you click that you get a couple of extra emoticons as well as the not equal sign.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 11:27 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Counter espionage?








[You allow that I laugh now and here: Laughing nimh Laughing Laughing and the liberals Laughing Laughing Laughing and even applying for a job .....................]


LOL

I think thats what might've put me out of contest ... they asked whether I could agree with the organisation's general orientation and I was being very diplomatic, expanding elaborately on how I pretty much always agree with the liberal parties' positions in Central and Eastern Europe, which is what the job would focus on ... I mean, what with the liberals' pioneering role in minority rights there, for example ... hey, PORA (see avatar) is probably considered liberal ... but I had to admit that in my own country, the VVD would, err <cough> ... not immediately be my first choice :wink:
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 11:34 am
Nimh, please pardon my curiosity, but what exactly is it that you do?
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 11:38 am
When you say "anti-state" do you mean the federal government?

I was under the impression that libertarians wanted less federal government involvment but greater state government power to allow individual states the chance to have individual laws. Lets say for example, one state would be able to make abortion legal but another state would be able to make it illegal. There would be no federal rulings on the subject becasue it isn't the federal governments responsibility.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 11:52 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
When you say "anti-state" do you mean the federal government?

Yes, sorry. Or government, per se, I mean. The state vs federal issue (which is a little obscure for me) ties in with that, but only partly I guess. What I meant to say was: pro-market, anti-government. And thats a big brush of course, ranging from American Libertarians who favour privatising the army and the roads to the rather middle-of-the-road European liberals, who simply take the occasional opportunity to score some votes with the lower-taxes, less-civil-servants, less-regulations, stricter-rules-on-welfare mantra.

Einherjar, I work for an NGO that strives to promote cultural diversity in the media.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2004 01:40 pm
Okay... we're making progress here.

What about social issues? How would you describe the differences in views between libertarians, conservatives and modern liberals?
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Dec, 2004 12:25 am
<listening with interest. Please continue ...>
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Dec, 2004 08:32 am
Alright.... more questions... and I'm hoping our resident federalist, Asherman, will show up to give his input.

Federalists and anti-federalists... which is more like the libertarian ideas and how do they compare/contrast?
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Dec, 2004 04:19 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Alright.... more questions... and I'm hoping our resident federalist, Asherman, will show up to give his input.

Federalists and anti-federalists... which is more like the libertarian ideas and how do they compare/contrast?


Asherman is a Federalist? I've never gotten that impression.

A Federalist would prefer to consolidate all decision making and power at the Federal level - State government (and in an extremist view, county and muiniciple government) would cease to exist or just become extensions of the Federal government. Any/all laws made would cover every single community the same.

The anti-Federalist position (probably best represented by the current Libertarians) would be a minimal Federal government with weak powers. Most issues would be decided at the state level or lower.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Dec, 2004 04:27 pm
I'm not sure that is correct fishin'... see here.
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