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Here's a ethical question

 
 
Reply Sat 8 Feb, 2003 02:00 pm
GWBush keeps claiming that Saddam has WMD, and starts his war with Iraq. Iraq uses their WMD against the US military, so GWBush nukes Baghdad.

Who is at fault here? GWBush or Saddam? How about the UN?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 7,452 • Replies: 81
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Feb, 2003 04:51 pm
Well, I'd start with the "claim," and then take it to the war. No dialogue, no investigation, nothing inbetween.

The natural reaction, when a war is brought to you, is to fight back.

So who started it, with what goal?

I don't think the U.N. The Bush league has always considered them irrelevant, and backed out of seceral committees. The U.N. only became important to the U.S. when it was obvious that many others thought it was.

Before this ends, we will have posted in Iraq one military person for every citizen. And enough ships and planes to carry them all away.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Feb, 2003 05:03 pm
mama, I see you are the only "brave" one to provide an opinion. I wonder why it scares so many to even comment? One in ten is not a good ratio. c.i.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Feb, 2003 05:11 pm
Hey, I am against the war. Period. If Bush instigates a war, the ones he attacks have to try to defend themselves.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Feb, 2003 05:13 pm
The one who shoots something off first.
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New Haven
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Feb, 2003 05:18 pm
I'll post a brief comment now and then come back on Sunday or Monday.

What started it?
I'd put my money on 9/11/01 and the sentiments of all our American citizens, which were the direct result of 9/11/01. If the WTC hadn't happened and there had been no terrorist acts or preparation for such acts, Bush would'nt have gotten involved with Iraq.

By the WAY: We're on orange alert. Prior to 9/11/01,there were no alerts, at least after the cold war with Russian ended. Shocked
0 Replies
 
New Haven
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Feb, 2003 05:20 pm
The first shot?

It was "the shot heard round the world".
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 02:05 am
The LOGICAL argument for possessing WDM is as a "deterrent". If party A fires the first shot they would expect the logical consequences from party B.

The problem comes however when you try to equate "logic" and "ethics". Ifyou believe (as I do) that "ethics" has no independent rationality to "expediency" the logical argument MAY equate to the ethical argument provided that the campaign goals are being achieved. However if you argue that "ethics" is based on some sort of "transcendent morality" you will have to justify your own responsibility in (a) being there (b) possessing WDM (c) providing WDM to A in the past, and also (d) the causation of colateral damage etc.

As indicated by previous posts above, "events" depend on the particular observers. In the wider context of such a hypothetical WDM exchange, there is clearly an element of "backlash for 9/11" operating for most observers. The logic and/or ethics at this macro level clearly have a bearing at the micro level.
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kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 10:03 am
Just War Theory
http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/j/justwar.htm

"Possessing just cause is the first and arguably the most important condition of jus ad bellum. Most theorists hold that initiating acts of aggression is unjust and gives a group a just cause to defend itself. But unless 'aggression' is defined, this proscription rather open-ended. For example, just cause resulting from an act of aggression can ostensibly be responses to a physical injury (e.g., a violation of territory), an insult (an aggression against national honor), a trade embargo (an aggression against economic activity), or even to a neighbor's prosperity (a violation of social justice).

"The onus is then on the just war theorist to provide a consistent and sound "account of what is meant by just cause. Whilst not going into the reasons of why the other explanations do not offer a useful condition of just cause, the consensus is that an initiation of physical force is wrong and may justly be resisted. Self-defense against physical aggression, therefore, is putatively the only sufficient reason for just cause. Nonetheless, the principle of self-defense can be extrapolated to anticipate probable acts of aggression, as well as in assisting others against an oppressive government or from another external threat (interventionism). Therefore, it is commonly held that aggressive war is only permissible if its purpose is to retaliate against a wrong already committed (e.g., to pursue and punish an aggressor), or to pre-empt an anticipated attack."


At no time has there been evidence that Iraq has an active plan set in motion to attack America pre-emptively. There is no justification for attacking Iraq. In fact, as sited by the following link, where retired senoir intel analyists spoke, the likelihood of Iraq using its alleged WMD is only considered valid if the Americans actually attack Iraq.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0207-04.htm

."...a letter from the CIA to the Senate Intelligence Committee asserted that the probability is low that Iraq would initiate an attack with such weapons or give them to terrorists. UNLESS:

"Should Saddam conclude that a US-led attack could no longer be deterred, he probably would become much less constrained in adopting terrorist actions."

"For now, continued the CIA letter, "Baghdad appears to be drawing a line short of conducting terrorist attacks with conventional or chemical/biological warfare against the United States." With his back against the wall, however, "Saddam might decide that the extreme step of assisting Islamist terrorists in conducting a weapons-of-mass-destruction attack against the United States would be his last chance to exact vengeance by taking a large number of victims with him."

fresco has it right, any presumption of "ethical" behavior that promotes attacking first is based upon subjective logic, dishonestly masked in univerals and is no different than what the imperial japanese navy did at pearl harbor. (and i am well aware of the befuddled mistakes in translation of coded messages to the japanese ambassador and delay of the declaration of war japan made that morning in washington that made such attack appear as a "sneak" attack.)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 11:47 am
kuvasz, I agree with your thesis on this issue. I do not see the ownership of WMD as reason enough to preemptive attack on any country, and it's use justified only in defense of one's country. c.i.
0 Replies
 
ferrous
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 02:46 pm
At Fault
GWBush would be at fault, for not nuking Baghdad before Saddam had a chance to use his first.

This was an easy one, got any more???

Pre-emptive is definitely the best scenario.
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 03:04 pm
Who told you that U.S. was going to nuke Baghdad? Maybe, usage of WMD against the U.S. troops will invoke some other kind of response (I do not know which exactly, I guess, Gen. Thomas Franks is aware of the possible response scenarios, but he did not share his knowledge with me)?
Nuking Baghdad is useless from strategic standpoint: Saddam does not value his compatriots' lives, so large number of casualties will not make him surrender.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 03:33 pm
steissd, Nobody said they will "nuke Baghdad." This is a ethical question with presumptions. However, FYI, Rummie has said that Saddam will "regret if they use WMD against the American troops." You may read into that anything you wish. c.i.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 03:42 pm
Cicerone Imposter
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:00 pm

GWBush keeps claiming that Saddam has WMD, and starts his war with Iraq. Iraq uses their WMD against the US military, so GWBush nukes Baghdad.

Lest we forget.

JM
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 03:45 pm
Ok, maybe Mr. Rumsfeld implied that the top brass of Iraq will share destiny of the OKW (Wehrmacht's General Staff HQ) chief Field-Marshal Wilhelm Keitel if they do such a thing? In 1946 Mr. Keitel was hanged up for committing war crimes.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 03:47 pm
James, FYI: 1) the war has not started, and it may never start, 2) Iraq has not used WMD, and 3) Bush has not nuked Baghdad. These are all presumtions for the sake of an ethical question. c.i.
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 03:56 pm
I'm not sure if you can pull up the page from this link. This was a full-page in the NYT today, with an unemotional, rather clear look at a whole picture.

It talks about rationale, reasons, history, perceptions, including our perceptions of our selves in today's world. It also discusses the changing nature of war, particularly about war being waged by people with bombs strapped around their waists, about what was able to be accomplished by so few on September 11, and about this administarations policies towards war in general, and the geo-political meaning of it.




http://oriononline.org/pages/om/Berry.pdf
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 04:02 pm
at the risk of sounding simplistic, there is so much blame to go around here that it can't possibly be pinned on one or another, but I think it's safe to say that in years to come the children of the USA will be taught a different version of these events than the children of Iraq.

Do you think they teach schoolchildren in England the same version of the revolutionary war?
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 04:49 pm
kuvasz,
Re jus ad bellum. Would Israel possess some legal justification to invade Iraq because of Saddam's proven policy of reimbursing suicide bombers' family?
If so, given the proper treaty (like that between the British and the Czech’s in the late 1930's) would Israel’s allies be justified in participating in Israel’s invading Iraq?

How about "Diplomacy by other means"?

JM
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Feb, 2003 05:04 pm
Bi-Polar, To be sure, to be sure. Wink c.i.
0 Replies
 
 

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