What is your vision of "Utopia"?

I see emotions for what they are: a tired remnant of the evolutionary process. They are closely related to instinct and are most easily seen in mammals. Logic often shows us where our emotions steer us wrong. I put a lot more stock in logic than I do in emotions.

Bertrand Russell wrote:

What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.

Cicero wrote:

He only employs his passion who can make no use of his reason.

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binnyboy wrote:

I see emotions for what they are: a tired remnant of the evolutionary process. They are closely related to instinct and are most easily seen in mammals. Logic often shows us where our emotions steer us wrong. I put a lot more stock in logic than I do in emotions.

Emotions: psychological feelings that people have that usually result from--and contribute to--a conflict. If emotions are effectively managed, they can become a resource for effective conflict resolution.

binny, I honestly feel sorry for you. Crying or Very sad

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Binny, I don't want to be critical of your position because I think you're pulling our legs, or yours. I, for one, believe that emotions and aesthetic experience are what it's all about. Reason is profoundly important and practical; but in the final analysis it's secondary in importance.
You say that our morals/values DEPEND on our desires. I agree that our society's values and its moral code at one time reflected the desires and interests of some dominant individuals or classes. But today YOUR morals are something that has been formulated and taught to you by your antecedents. This is less so for your personal values. They can be your inventions, but this is less the case (by definition) of your society's moral code. That's more a matter of culture while values are more a matter of personallity. But tell me: have you never wanted something and believed that you should not either attain it or even want it? That inhibition or problem of conscience reflects either your personal values and/or your internalized social morals as they conflict with your drives (the Freuding conflict between superego and id).
By "philosophically defensible" I guess I referred to a rationalization that you and/or your significant others accept as reasonable and realistic.
By "interest" is guess I mean your goals and incentives--reflections of desires whether or not they are consistent with your values and society's morals.

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Binnyboy said:

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I see emotions for what they are: a tired remnant of the evolutionary process. They are closely related to instinct and are most easily seen in mammals. Logic often shows us where our emotions steer us wrong. I put a lot more stock in logic than I do in emotions.

That's really sad. Yes, we all understand that we shouldn't be ruled by our passions, but to try to set yourself above them, spock-like, and proclaim "I see them for what they are", sure sounds like whistling in the dark to me.

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snood, I'm still a victim of them, I admit. I did not mean to sound prudish. But I don't want to be a victim of my emotions. And that's why I think I have it right and you guys have it wrong.

JLN, yes, I have had desires to not desire some things. All those things I said were examples of that. Call it id, ego, and superego if you like, and analyze it that way. The superego is the good one right? Well if you want to look at it in those terms, I guess I'd like superego to have complete control over id. If that's how those three work, that is. And hardy har har, believe it or not I am absolutely serious. I am in the mechanical engineering. I just got back from a high school robotics team meeting that I mentor with. It's the future, whether most folks realize it or not. I've seriously considered making my future in the MEMS and NEMS nanorobotics. If I could just pull together my will to do anything, I'd be able to care enough to try in my classes. I've witnessed firsthand the fall of a titan.

graffiti, consider the negative decisions people make using emotions. One man kills another in anger. A jealous man beats his wife. A lusty wife cheats on her husband. You almost certainly believe in Satan... So let's use Satan as an example of the epitome of emotion. Why doesn't he just ask for forgiveness? Why can't you just talk him out of being so mean? The common explanation is that he is angry and unreasonable.

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No, the common answer is that he is blinded by pride - which, considering what I know of human nature, seems reasonable to me.

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binnyboy wrote:

graffiti, consider the negative decisions people make using emotions. One man kills another in anger. A jealous man beats his wife. A lusty wife cheats on her husband. You almost certainly believe in Satan... So let's use Satan as an example of the epitome of emotion. Why doesn't he just ask for forgiveness? Why can't you just talk him out of being so mean? The common explanation is that he is angry and unreasonable.

binnyboy, please also consider the positive rewards one receives from using our emotions; eg., love, happiness, even sorrow: to FEEL.

I do not believe in Satan, so your example rings hollow for me.

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Ok snood, so how does prideful (more than proud Smile

) and unreasonable sound? It's fine with me. And it seems reasonable to you that Satan is blinded by pride? Or it seems to you that Satan is being reasonable by being blinded by pride?

Graffiti, that's just the thing. The positives ring hollow to me. I look at the things that make me feel good and some of them sicken me. So that makes me devalue or at least questions ALL of my positive feelings, and OBVIOUSLY my negative feelings.

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binnyboy wrote:

Ok snood, so how does prideful (more than proud ) and unreasonable sound? It's fine with me. And it seems reasonable to you that Satan is blinded by pride? Or it seems to you that Satan is being reasonable by being blinded by pride?

The descriptions I've heard of Satan being prideful are reasonable to me, because I believe his character is expressed in the worst of human nature, and I see pride as one of the biggest problematic parts of human nature.

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binnyboy wrote:

Graffiti, that's just the thing. The positives ring hollow to me. I look at the things that make me feel good and some of them sicken me. So that makes me devalue or at least questions ALL of my positive feelings, and OBVIOUSLY my negative feelings.

binny, binny, binny, really?

The positives all ring hollow? Some of the things that make you feel good sicken you? It's okay to question all of your feelings, but why come to the conclusion that you want to simply get rid of them?

In a general way, let me posit that when someone is sickened by things that feel good...........generally, shame is involved.

I have a FEELING that you need a hug.

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Binny, your comments to me indicate that you did not understand me at all. What you need is an intellectual spanking. Laughing

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Whoops... JLN, let me look back and see if I missed something.

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I agree that our society's values and its moral code at one time reflected the desires and interests of some dominant individuals or classes. But today YOUR morals are something that has been formulated and taught to you by your antecedents.

Hmmmm
I think maybe your idea of morality equates to my idea of social contract. There are differences, though, as I would imagine. For instance, a system of morality would seem to be more defined in terms of the individual as opposed to interactions. For instance, in a system of morality, killing a murderer might be wrong, whereas in the social contract, the murderer has forsaken the contract and is no longer protected under it. The moral person is still bound by the "do not kill" term of morality whereas the contractually bound person is under no obligations regarding the murderer. What is your thought on this perceived connection between morality and the social contract?

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But tell me: have you never wanted something and believed that you should not either attain it or even want it? That inhibition or problem of conscience reflects either your personal values and/or your internalized social morals as they conflict with your drives (the Freuding conflict between superego and id).

This is what I was referring to when I said

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yes, I have had desires to not desire some things. All those things I said were examples of that.

and which I think you were referring to when you said I needed a spanking Embarrassed

Am I right in this?

What I meant is: I have wanted something and believed that I should not either attain it or even want it. I referenced the things I said earlier:

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So what if you had control of what you wanted?

What if you could change your cravings for expensive food to a craving for really cheap healthy food?

What if you could change your love of bowling to a love of making stew at a homeless shelter?

What if you could change your secret admiration of the beauty of the skanky slut BSpears or JLo or whoever to the repulsion proper to someone of her personage?

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Do I still need a spanking? Smile

Related question: Are you female Smile

jk jk

Graffiti, I haven't come to the conclusion of abolishing feelings. If I implied that, forgive me... I am not the most stable individual I'll admit. If you look back

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I submit that the things most people want or envision as part of their "personal utopia" are pathetic and ill-conceived. I submit that given the chance, many would change the things they want through brain manipulation. I submit that these changes in desires would cause the individual to want to change other desires. This process would eventually translate the set of wants and desires into a very different set. For some time, I considered the complete devaluation of everything and then the choosing of a new set of values (wants). But given no set of values to work with, one would be hard pressed to name other wants (values) that would be the "proper" ones to choose. These wants... these values... are at the very core of what we are. To end these values are to end more than it seems at first. To end these values is to end our desire to live, to end our quest for anything, to end the reason for anything. I envision this as the nirvana I have heard a scarce little about. Philosophically, that is. Practically, it seems to me that it would be a lot like death.

you'll see that I am reluctantly against abolishing feelings and rather reluctantly for allowing my feelings to drift in the direction they want to go. If I am not mistaken I will allow my superego to take the steering wheel and guide my values to where it wants. This will of course change the course, and where it stops no one knows. But wherever it stops will clearly be the best place imaginable. Because it will have been chosen one step at a time as the best way to go.
The only reason I'm against letting go of feelings altogether is because I think it would end what I call my existence. But then again, that's only the grip fear has on me talking. So as I let my superego do the guiding, I may decide fully against feelings after all.

Is any of this making sense?

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binnyboy wrote:

Graffiti, I haven't come to the conclusion of abolishing feelings. If I implied that, forgive me... I am not the most stable individual I'll admit. If you look back

Quote:
I submit that the things most people want or envision as part of their "personal utopia" are pathetic and ill-conceived. I submit that given the chance, many would change the things they want through brain manipulation. I submit that these changes in desires would cause the individual to want to change other desires. This process would eventually translate the set of wants and desires into a very different set. For some time, I considered the complete devaluation of everything and then the choosing of a new set of values (wants). But given no set of values to work with, one would be hard pressed to name other wants (values) that would be the "proper" ones to choose. These wants... these values... are at the very core of what we are. To end these values are to end more than it seems at first. To end these values is to end our desire to live, to end our quest for anything, to end the reason for anything. I envision this as the nirvana I have heard a scarce little about. Philosophically, that is. Practically, it seems to me that it would be a lot like death.

you'll see that I am reluctantly against abolishing feelings and rather reluctantly for allowing my feelings to drift in the direction they want to go. If I am not mistaken I will allow my superego to take the steering wheel and guide my values to where it wants. This will of course change the course, and where it stops no one knows. But wherever it stops will clearly be the best place imaginable. Because it will have been chosen one step at a time as the best way to go.
The only reason I'm against letting go of feelings altogether is because I think it would end what I call my existence. But then again, that's only the grip fear has on me talking. So as I let my superego do the guiding, I may decide fully against feelings after all.

Is any of this making sense?

The sense I make of it is that you are letting fear rule your life. Enjoy, binny, enjoy! Trust that you will choose wisely. If you don't, so what? You will have had fun AND learned for the future.

By the way, I still think you need a hug, although, spankings can be provided if that's your preference. Twisted Evil

:wink:

Here's some corny, perhaps, but apt lyrics for you to consider:

Lookin' back on the memories of
the dance we shared beneath the stars above.
For a moment, all the world was right.
How could I've known that you'd ever say 'good bye?'

And now, I'm glad I didn't know the way it all would end
the way it all would go.
And our lives are better left to chance.
I could have missed the pain, but I'd've had to miss the dance.

Holdin' you, I've held everything.
For a moment, wasn't I the king?
But if I'd only known how the king would fall,
Hey, who's to say, you know, I might have changed it all.

And now, I'm glad I didn't know the way it all would end
the way it all would go.
And our lives are better left to chance.
I could have missed the pain, but I'd've had to miss the dance.

Yes, my life is better left to chance.
I could have missed the pain, but I'd've had to miss the dance.

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I love that song.

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I'd take either... or both Wink

Don't mind me... I'm a perv haha
Yet another thing I'd at least reduce if I were in control of my own motivations.

The thing is, (and I'll quit harping on this after this) that the good we feel is arbitrary at best and often harmful when seen realistically. I'd control my feelings if I could. Wouldn't you?

And you can see where that road leads.

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I think you're on to something, binny. I'm not quite as radical about it as you are, but I do think that control over one's emotions produces a better life. It's in the choosing of which emotions to suppress that's tricky.

For example: A pedophile lusts after children, and probably (at least, I would hope) feels ashamed of these feelings. If he could simply get rid of these feelings, he would probably go on to live a normal, happy life.

As a broader example: There are always feelings that we, as humans suppress out of necessity; otherwise we'd be pulling guns on people who cut us off in traffic and raping whatever beautiful woman or man walks by. There are such things as bad feelings, which I would call part of the id, to continue binny's labeling system. Now, if the Super-Ego(conscience) could control/eliminate the harmful part of the id, we'd all be fine, right?

The problem with binny's view, I feel, is the desire to eliminate everything. Without our "noble" side, or whatever you want to call it, we're not human(and I mean that in the optimistic, hope-for-a-better-future way). There are things that are obviously good, and are not, in my view, "arbitrary" at all. I like to use my version of the golden rule, which i stole from A Beautiful Mind (which is an excellent movie, btw): Do what's best for yourself, and for the group. This enables you to strike a balance that would, If I'm right, enable Utopia.

Well, that's enough rambling for now.

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I'm more with you than you might expect, Taliesin. I admit that I am suspicious of all my emotions and I think they are probably only arbitrary, but I also admit that if I pursued the conclusion of that line of thought--abolish feelings--I would be left with no motivation of where to go from there, and so I would cease to be, so far as my current conception of self goes. So the only rational way is to proceed slowly and let my superego take over little by little. Whether emotions stay or go in the end, I don't know, but it is at least conceivable that I would drift slowly in the direction you are predicting.

And please, ramble away Smile

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binnyboy said:

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And please, ramble away

Well, since you asked...

I think this statement:

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So the only rational way is to proceed slowly and let my superego take over little by little.

Ignores some of the positive aspects of the id, namely unconscious thought and dreams(almost the same thing, but not quite). Both enable us to process and take care of things we could not otherwise handle, and following Jung's theory of the Collective unconscious, link us to the rest of society. So, as far as total suppression of the id goes, I'm against it, but in terms of sex and aggression, those parts can go. One might view this as your aforementioned desire to eliminate the "humanity" in us all, but I think of it as our race's eventual evolutionary goal. Might be wishful naivete, but that's my view.

I think you're right, binny, we do seem to be sharing these views. Good to know.

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Utopia? You have got to be joking me! My teen son said it best. Life on Earth is nothing more than Purgatory. We have only moments of true happiness and spend the majority of our lives doing what is demanded of us, which is far from fun and games.

I'm not religious. I don't believe there is anything more out there for me than there is for the life of my dead, beloved Lab. It ends there. Life is what you make it and how you view it. I do have to add, ignorance really is bliss.

Once again, give me the Cliff Notes! It is hard to hit a topic, with so many replies.

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I think those who have read my thread on hedonism and enslavement know my view on feelings. They are simply motivators that needs to be guided. Feelings can be attached to things that are not appropriate. One may feel something for a certain thing, but the 'feeling' and the 'thing' itself are not one. I used to like a certain cartoon, but then I don't like it anymore. Why do I feel differently about it? This shows that our feelings are unfixed. We can change our feelings to certain things, believe, and know how and what to change.

As to Utopia, let's focus on the problems we need to fix now.

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What is your vision of "Utopia"?

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