0
   

"Courts are not equipped to execute the law."

 
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 12:24 pm
Now I am truly afraid for Davidson Loehr. He might be under attack from either the fundamentalist Islamists or the fundamentalist right--either is comparably dangerous and come from the same mold.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 12:27 pm
I doubt he has reason to fear the Islamic murderers. I just read one of his "sermons" in which he pretty much says we got what we deserved on 9/11/01.

They'd most likely cheer him...as do many libs on this site.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 02:08 pm
JW -- Don't know the Texas preacher's name, but you can get all the inofmration here:

First UU Church of Austin Sermons
Living Under Fascism
7 November 2004
First UU Church of Austin
4700 Grover Ave., Austin, TX 78756
512-452-6168 . www.austinuu.org
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 02:11 pm
re back to the title of this thread I started, seems we are left to the idea that only the Bush admin is equiped to "execute" the law. Doing a fine job of it I see.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 02:18 pm
I am indebted to Lightwizard for sending me this as an e-mail.





Thanks to Jay in California:

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It
both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind...And when the drums
of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the
citizenry.

Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will
offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so.

How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."



--- William Shakespeare
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 03:17 pm
JustWonders wrote:
I doubt he has reason to fear the Islamic murderers. I just read one of his "sermons" in which he pretty much says we got what we deserved on 9/11/01.

They'd most likely cheer him...as do many libs on this site.


Please show us where he says you got what you deserved.

I a SOOOOO sick of this pathetic tactic - which becomes more and more prevalent in your right wing, I notice - (but, thank goddess we have not - so far as I can see - stooped to here) - to compare anyone who does not trumpet unwavering support for all that Bush and his government does with terrorists.

A perfect - and blackly ironic - example of what the brave fella has preached against.

Can't you SEE what you and your ilk are doing, JW?

Doesn't it scare you a tiny little bit that you no longer brook any questioning without resorting to vilification?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 03:18 pm
And on a thread where one of your leaders is damning one of the very bedrock institurions of your freedom and democracy?

Feh.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 03:25 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Lemme see if I've got this straight here .... preachers pontificating politically from the pulpit is prohibited unless the preacher pontificates "Progressive" pap ... is that about it? Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Carry on.


Ah, how clever, Timber.

Except - who has prohibited preaching? Or tried to. You raise a straw person.

People's concern is that a fundamentalist right wing president is furthering his religious agenda through the presidency. Can you not see how that is different from letting preachers preach whatever they like (unless, presumably, it breaks the law of the land)

I note you have made no attempt to respond to any of the man's points - just vilified him and anyone who sees some sense in what he says.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 03:56 pm
"progressive pap" I like that phrase even more than I like "repressive pablum" kinda has a ring to it don't you think? But really, folks" is the Bush Admin really the only ones capable of "executing" the law?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 04:19 pm
You beat me to it, dlowan. I was going to ask Timber the self-same question. I don't recall anyone on this thread (or on any similar thread) saying that right-wing preachers should not be allowed to preach their views. Freedom of expression is a fundamental right guaranteed by the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution. What I have objected to, in the past, is those bishops who threaten to excommunicate the whole congregation if they don't vote for a particular candidate, or -- conversely-- vote for one whose ways do not align with the Church. Other than that, if some neocon minister or priest wishes to extoll the virtues of the present administration, why, that's fine with me.

Here, again, as dlowan has already said, y'all are seting up straw men who do not, in fact, exist and assuming attitudes on the part of liberals which also do not exist.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 05:19 pm
Re: "Courts are not equipped to execute the law."
dyslexia wrote:
"Courts are not equipped to execute the law. They are not accountable to the people," (retiring John) Ashcroft said.
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/111204ashcroft.html


This sounds awfully reminiscent of Pres. Andrew Jackon's comments on the USSC's Worcester vs. Georgia ruling.
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 05:45 pm
Hi fishin'--there are too many bad presidents who have tried to take advantage of the American Indian. Even dear old Eisenhower, a good and decent man, who would these days be called a raving liberal, tried Indian Relocation.

Nobody has said evil exists only in the neocon mind or that the law has been bent only by Bush, et al, only that this time it is having an effect right now on the citizens of the US.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 05:57 pm
Diane wrote:
Hi fishin'--there are too many bad presidents who have tried to take advantage of the American Indian. Even dear old Eisenhower, a good and decent man, who would these days be called a raving liberal, tried Indian Relocation.

Nobody has said evil exists only in the neocon mind or that the law has been bent only by Bush, et al, only that this time it is having an effect right now on the citizens of the US.


I wasn't trying to pin it on anyone here Diane. The line is just something that is almost identical to a line that was attributed to Jackson on a show on the History Channel I was watching yesterday. When the USSC ruled against the State of Georgia Jackson said "Let the Court execute the law they make". Of course, the court has no way to execute their decisions so, even though the Cherokee's won the case they were still forced off of their land because Jackson wouldn't send Federal troops to stop the Georgia militia from rounding them up.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 06:01 pm
Jackson was as big an ass as (fill in the blank).
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 08:20 pm
This, of course, is the truly scary part: the courts can hand down the best of decisions; but, without the cooperation of the Executive branch, the justices have no power to enforce their rulings. The Cherokees faced their Trail of Tears because Jackson chose to ignore the Court's ruling.

In a sense, Ashcroft's statement is absolutely true. "They are not accountable to the people." They aren't supposed to be. They are accountable to the letter and spirit of the law, not to popular opinion.This is the very definition of an 'impartial' judiciary. The courts are not supposed to be accountable to either the people or to another branch of the government, e.g. the Oval Office.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 09:17 pm
Merry Andrew wrote:
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It
both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind...And when the drums
of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the
citizenry.

Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will
offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so.

How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

--- William Shakespeare

There are compelling two reasons why this quotation couldn't possibly have been written by William Shakespeare:

1. The words "patriot" and "patriotism" were unknown in Shakespeare's day, having been coined only in the 18th century.

2. The writing is just too godawful.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 09:20 pm
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl-caesar-quote.htm
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 09:44 pm
Merry Andrew wrote:
JW -- Don't know the Texas preacher's name, but you can get all the inofmration here:

First UU Church of Austin Sermons
Living Under Fascism
7 November 2004
First UU Church of Austin
4700 Grover Ave., Austin, TX 78756
512-452-6168 . www.austinuu.org


Thanks for the info (I'd already found him...see p.5) Smile

He's kinda wacky, and has a rather small congregation, but even so, I can't imagine anyone taking him too seriously. I do agree with you about freedom of speech, although haven't personally seen any evidence of any Bishops threatening whole congregations with excommunication. I suppose it's possible. I remember a rumor that some bishop said he thought Kerry should be excommunicated for his views on abortion (him professing to being such a devout Catholic and all), but don't generally put much stock in rumors.

There has been quite a bit of sniping on this forum about right-wing fundamentalists and the Bush supporters who just happen to be religious, in general, and I think some of that is what Timber was referring to in his post. Do a search under Politics, using "religion" or religious" and you'll come up with more than 900 hits LOL.

I've said it before, I believe in God but I'm not necessarily "religious" and that wasn't my reason for voting as I did. Matter of fact, I can't think of anyone I know who even remotely had religion in mind when voting.

If the good reverend of that UU church wants to compare what he sees as the "religious right" to fascists, that's his right, as he well knows. He will, however, get laughed at Smile Just my opinion, of course.
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 10:13 pm
Good eye Joe! I googled the quote and this was one of the links:

"Beware of the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry, [who] infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How will I know? For this I have done. And I am Julius Caesar."

rainstormsong Julius Caesar quotes (Roman general and statesman, emperor of Rome, 100-44 B.C.)

http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/beware_of_the_leader_who_bangs_the_drums_of_war/339885.html
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 03:40 pm
Yeah. I know, I know. Apparently that spurious quote has been making the rounds of the gullible folks on the internet (e.g. myself) for a while. Less than an hour after e-mailing me the quote, Lightwizard e-mailed an apologetic retraction. I should have known better.

As for the etymology of 'patriot' and 'patriotism', again, Joe is right. It's an 18th Century coinage. However, it could have been an 18th or 19th Century translation of a quote from Gaivus Ivlivs Caesar hisself, couldn't it? OK, OK, that's lame, too.
0 Replies
 
 

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