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The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

 
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 09:48 am
Quote:
We can argue that point all day and it won't change my belief


What did Mark Twain say about it being better to remain silent...

Here is a man who refuses to accept the findings of science and prefers to let his fears think for him. Pretty sad.
0 Replies
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 09:53 am
Baldimo wrote:
Chrissee wrote:
Scrat wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
Debra_Law: Having seen you criticized in this and other threads by people whose only claim to legal knowledge is based on an unshakable faith in their own self-righteousness and an immovable belief in their obscurantist convictions, I just want to say that I think you're doing a fine job. Your posts are informative, well-researched, and compellingly argued. Keep up the good work.

If you are referring to me, please note (if you can) that I applauded her for her legal knowledge, but castigated her for attacking me personally and accusing me of being anti-gay when I am nothing of the kind.


Well, that only like the 199th denial on this thread.


So unless you standup and scream how proud you are for gay people and support everything they do then you are a bigot or a hatemonger?



You entirely miss the point. This thread has been up for like six months but we have yet to find one honest man who will admit that he opposes gay marriage because he is a homophobe. Again, you might be fooling yourself but you are not fooling me!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:00 am
We understand you are a heterophobe Chris. You do not need to keep shouting it from the rooftops.

You asked "Did you choose your sexual orientation?"

Yes. I chose not to be a homosexual. That left one other option, heterosexual.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:01 am
CoastalRat wrote:
The difference, IMO, is that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice.

Not that I agree with you, but so what if homosexuality is a lifestyle choice? Remember, it is also illegal to discriminate on the basis of religion, and what is religion but a "lifestyle choice?" If a law said that only christians could marry, would you say that's acceptable, since it only discriminates on the basis of a "lifestyle choice?" Would that law be "fair" because it permits everyone equally, regardless of religion, to marry a christian?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:03 am
McGentrix wrote:
Yes. I chose not to be a homosexual. That left one other option, heterosexual.

You still have another option available to you, McG:

http://www.carlcoxphoto.com/images/TuckerCarlson.jpg

Eunuch.
0 Replies
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:04 am
McGentrix wrote:
We understand you are a heterophobe Chris. You do not need to keep shouting it from the rooftops.

You asked "Did you choose your sexual orientation?"

Yes. I chose not to be a homosexual. That left one other option, heterosexual.


Oh so you really are gay then?
0 Replies
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:08 am
McGentrix wrote:
We understand you are a heterophobe Chris. You do not need to keep shouting it from the rooftops.

You asked "Did you choose your sexual orientation?"

Yes. I chose not to be a homosexual. That left one other option, heterosexual.


So how is that working out for you? Do you occasionally slip up? Or do you keep your gay side fairly well bottled up and only fantasize about it?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:10 am
joefromchicago wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Yes. I chose not to be a homosexual. That left one other option, heterosexual.

You still have another option available to you, McG:

http://www.carlcoxphoto.com/images/TuckerCarlson.jpg

Eunuch.


Laughing
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:14 am
I personally did not choose to be or not to be anything. I certainly didn't choose not to be homosexual, it was never an issue for me.

I just go on my merry way, havin' a good time with folks, and don't give a rat's ass how they get their jollies at night.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:14 am
joefromchicago wrote:
CoastalRat wrote:
The difference, IMO, is that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice.

Not that I agree with you, but so what if homosexuality is a lifestyle choice? Remember, it is also illegal to discriminate on the basis of religion, and what is religion but a "lifestyle choice?" If a law said that only christians could marry, would you say that's acceptable, since it only discriminates on the basis of a "lifestyle choice?" Would that law be "fair" because it permits everyone equally, regardless of religion, to marry a christian?

That's a tough and interesting argument to counter, and one I haven't heard before. But my first impression of it is that it cuts both ways: Suppose a mormon were to argue that polygamy lies at the core of his religious beliefs, and that the proscription of polygamy has the effect of discriminating against mormons. Would you argue that this would be a good reason for the Supreme Court to strike down the proscription of polygamy?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:16 am
To be honest: I really can't remember that someone asked me before birth, what I wanted to be or better: I can't remember, if I was asked.

As far as I know, I didn't choose anything.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:17 am
Is a mormone like a hormone, only different?

Silly argument, Thomas, Joe was using that example to underline the specious character of CR's argument, not because he necessarily considers it a valid argument.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:29 am
joefromchicago wrote:
CoastalRat wrote:
The difference, IMO, is that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice.

Not that I agree with you, but so what if homosexuality is a lifestyle choice? Remember, it is also illegal to discriminate on the basis of religion, and what is religion but a "lifestyle choice?" If a law said that only christians could marry, would you say that's acceptable, since it only discriminates on the basis of a "lifestyle choice?" Would that law be "fair" because it permits everyone equally, regardless of religion, to marry a christian?


If you do not see the difference in your example and gay marriage, I fail to see how my pointing it out to you will make any difference. For about the hundredth time on this thread, marriage is the union of a man and a woman. That is what it has always been in our society and in most societies throughout history. Restrictions as you give as an example change the definition of marriage.

I have little reason or desire to object to some kind of civil union for gay couples, so long as it does not lead to any law that forces a church to recognize that union as being morally equal to marriage. They can claim it is morally the same and Christian churches can say otherwise. This would provide the legal benefits they desire. But compromise is not what the gay community (as a whole) wants or desires.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:31 am
Setanta wrote:
Is a mormone like a hormone, only different?

No, it's actually more like a mormon, only Spanish. There's a certain ... je ne sais quoi about inserting fancy foreign words into my writing. I am sorry my Spanish confused you, and have now simplified my spelling to accommodate you.

Setanta wrote:
Silly argument, Thomas, Joe was using that example to underline the specious character of CR's argument, not because he necessarily considers it a valid argument.

I agree about the specious character of CR's argument. Still, it's always fun to test the mettle of Joe's points, no matter what purpose they were made to achieve.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:35 am
CoastalRat wrote:
... so long as it does not lead to any law that forces a church to recognize that union as being morally equal to marriage.


What a church says about marriage and what it is legally, should be totally different subjects, at least in societies, where church and state are seperated.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:36 am
Good come back, Thomas . . .
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:40 am
Thomas wrote:
That's a tough and interesting argument to counter, and one I haven't heard before. But my first impression of it is that it cuts both ways: Suppose a very traditional mormone were to argue that polygamy lies at the core of his religious beliefs, and that the proscription of polygamy has the effect of discriminating against mormones. Would you argue that this would be a good reason for the Supreme Court to strike down the proscription of polygamy?

Under the Free Exercise Clause, a law that burdens religious practice need not be justified by a compelling governmental interest if it is neutral and of general applicability. On the other hand, if a regulation is aimed solely at one religion, then it is subject to strict scrutiny (which, in practice, means that it is always unconstitutional). See Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah. In the case of polygamy, the courts have held that the regulations are neutral and of general applicability; no one is permitted more than one spouse, not just Mormons.

But that would be based on the first amendment's free exercise clause. Under normal circumstances, discriminatory laws are judged according to the fourteenth amendment's equal protection and due process clauses. A law that said that only Mormons could have multiple spouses, for instance, would violate the fourteenth amendment. We need to keep in mind that the first amendment free exercise cases are not the same as the fourteenth amendment equal protection and due process cases.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:45 am
CoastalRat wrote:
If you do not see the difference in your example and gay marriage, I fail to see how my pointing it out to you will make any difference. For about the hundredth time on this thread, marriage is the union of a man and a woman. That is what it has always been in our society and in most societies throughout history. Restrictions as you give as an example change the definition of marriage.

Or, in other words, marriage is between a man and a woman because marriage is between a man and a woman. That's not an argument, that's begging the question -- and it's begging the question even on its 100th iteration.

CoastalRat wrote:
I have little reason or desire to object to some kind of civil union for gay couples, so long as it does not lead to any law that forces a church to recognize that union as being morally equal to marriage. They can claim it is morally the same and Christian churches can say otherwise. This would provide the legal benefits they desire. But compromise is not what the gay community (as a whole) wants or desires.

If you are worried about some law that will force churches to recognize gay marriages, then you are worried about a phantom. The government could never pass such a law.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:07 am
joefromchicago wrote:
We need to keep in mind that the first amendment free exercise cases are not the same as the fourteenth amendment equal protection and due process cases.

Thanks, I haven't kept that in mind. But now that you mention the First Amendment, it spawns another question: Couldn't one try to make the case that when two people marry each other, that is a non-verbal form of expression by which they affirm their commitment to one another? That gay marriage, like flag-burning, is a controversial form of non-verbal expression that is nevertheless protected by the First Amendment's free speech clause? Has anyone tried to argue this in a court? If so, what have the courts made of that argument? (Sorry for spamming you with all those questions, but I find it interesting to work through these things.)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:09 am
Shouldn't you argue that falls under the "peacably to assemble" clause?
0 Replies
 
 

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