23
   

The anti-gay marriage movement IS homophobic

 
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 02:42 pm
Scrat wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
Debra_Law: Having seen you criticized in this and other threads by people whose only claim to legal knowledge is based on an unshakable faith in their own self-righteousness and an immovable belief in their obscurantist convictions, I just want to say that I think you're doing a fine job. Your posts are informative, well-researched, and compellingly argued. Keep up the good work.

If you are referring to me, please note (if you can) that I applauded her for her legal knowledge, but castigated her for attacking me personally and accusing me of being anti-gay when I am nothing of the kind.


Well, that only like the 199th denial on this thread.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 02:42 pm
Chrissee wrote:


The same things were said about uppity niggers hurting the Civil Rights cause.

We shall overcome...some day!


I had to do a double take with your post. However you mean the word, I hardly think it appropriate to use. Ever.

What was it you said? Oh yeah....
Chrissee wrote:
We shall overcome...some day!


I know you didn't mean it like you think I thought you meant it...but using the word in any form bugs me. Sorry.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 03:14 pm
Scrat wrote:
Since you seem to have missed where I mentioned this to you before, let me use bold to note that I support the creation of same-gender unions in my state.


I'm sorry if you believe that I jumped to conclusions with respect to your position on this issue.

Based on the above, then you ARE a proponent of the equal protection clause of the United States Constitution, an opponent of discrimination based on sexual orientation, and a supporter of same-sex marriage?

Or are you one of those who support "civil unions" for same-sex couples while reserving "marriage" for opposite-sex couples?

I personally don't think the people in the "let's keep 'em separate but almost equal" camp have any claim to moral superiority over those who flatly refuse to treat homosexuals as equals under the law in any respect. Bias and oppression by varying degrees is still bias and oppression.

So, forgive me Scrat, if I mischaracterized your position. I didn't realize that you were a proponent of same-sex marriage.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 04:11 pm
blatham wrote:
CR

You are entirely welcome to your religious notions. However, when they spill over into affecting the lives of others who do not agree, then you reach too far. . . .

That you object on religious grounds to homosexuality is, constitutionally speaking, quite irrelevant to anything. That you would push for legislation which places homosexual behavior, including marriage, into a less-than-equal category is bigotry, as it was when interracial marriage was likewise legislated against (legislation withdrawn in California only two or three decades ago, if memory has that right).

"Hatred" is not a necessary component of the term 'homophobia' as 'hatred' for blacks isn't a necessary component of beliefs and notions of proper laws regarding racism.


Exactly!

Personally, I don't know how the "religious" folk are able to compartmentalize their sentiments and separate their moral disapproval of the alleged sin from their moral disapproval of the alleged sinner. An element of learned hate (however disguised or justified as being something other than what it truly is) must most certainly spill over and taint their motivations.

Moral disapproval alone, whether based on personal biases or hate or religious beliefs (which I do not believe can be separated and compartmentalized in a manner to eliminate biases or hate), can never serve as a legitimate basis for unequal treatment of the persons (believed to be sinners by some) through the operation of laws. That's oppression, plain and simple. Tyranny in the name of religion is still tyranny.

It is not rational or legitimate in a diverse country such as ours for the religious folk to force their personally-held religious views on society as a whole through the operation of laws. We require our government to be secular for a compelling reason--so that ALL citizens (the religious folk and the non-religious folk; the straights and the gays; the blacks and the whites; etc.) can all live equally in our national society without fear of discriminatory treatment; share equally in the social and economic benefits of our citizenship; and share equally in the political processes of a religious-neutral government.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 04:20 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Debra_Law: Having seen you criticized in this and other threads by people whose only claim to legal knowledge is based on an unshakable faith in their own self-righteousness and an immovable belief in their obscurantist convictions, I just want to say that I think you're doing a fine job. Your posts are informative, well-researched, and compellingly argued. Keep up the good work.


Thank you, Joe.
0 Replies
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 04:22 pm
Bella Dea wrote:
Chrissee wrote:


The same things were said about uppity niggers hurting the Civil Rights cause.

We shall overcome...some day!


I had to do a double take with your post. However you mean the word, I hardly think it appropriate to use. Ever.

What was it you said? Oh yeah....
Chrissee wrote:
We shall overcome...some day!


I know you didn't mean it like you think I thought you meant it...but using the word in any form bugs me. Sorry.


It was a very appropriate analogy. I walked arm in arm with blacks during the Civil Rights Movement, at a very young age I might add. And was called a "nigger lover" quite a few times. "What do these uppitty niggers think they are doing trying to" push the majority to acknowlege their right.
Heard that too. Bulldyke, faggot, carpet muncher, queer, fruit etc. Words of hate, sad, isn't it?
0 Replies
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 04:24 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
Debra_Law: Having seen you criticized in this and other threads by people whose only claim to legal knowledge is based on an unshakable faith in their own self-righteousness and an immovable belief in their obscurantist convictions, I just want to say that I think you're doing a fine job. Your posts are informative, well-researched, and compellingly argued. Keep up the good work.


I second that emotion.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 04:49 pm
Chrissee wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
Chrissee wrote:


The same things were said about uppity niggers hurting the Civil Rights cause.

We shall overcome...some day!


I had to do a double take with your post. However you mean the word, I hardly think it appropriate to use. Ever.

What was it you said? Oh yeah....
Chrissee wrote:
We shall overcome...some day!


I know you didn't mean it like you think I thought you meant it...but using the word in any form bugs me. Sorry.


It was a very appropriate analogy. I walked arm in arm with blacks during the Civil Rights Movement, at a very young age I might add. And was called a "nigger lover" quite a few times. "What do these uppitty niggers think they are doing trying to" push the majority to acknowlege their right.
Heard that too. Bulldyke, faggot, carpet muncher, queer, fruit etc. Words of hate, sad, isn't it?


Yes, sad. Sad
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 07:39 pm
20 minutes ago

Quote:


<snip>

Quote:
"(This) is about the Charter of Rights," Prime Minister Paul Martin said earlier Tuesday.

"We are a nation of minorities. And in a nation of minorities, it is important that you don't cherry-pick rights.

"A right is a right and that is what this vote tonight is all about."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050628.wssex0628/BNStory/Front/


Thank you to cavfancier's aunt for her legal decisions that were important components of the lead-up to this vote.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 08:14 pm
bethie

I wrote Martin today just to pass on how proud I was of him for his courage to follow through on his promise and this issue.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 10:03 pm
The vote was 158 - 133
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 10:12 pm
Now, we just need to decriminalize marijuana and I think we get an automatic in to the EU.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 11:05 pm
Chrissee wrote:
Scrat wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
Debra_Law: Having seen you criticized in this and other threads by people whose only claim to legal knowledge is based on an unshakable faith in their own self-righteousness and an immovable belief in their obscurantist convictions, I just want to say that I think you're doing a fine job. Your posts are informative, well-researched, and compellingly argued. Keep up the good work.

If you are referring to me, please note (if you can) that I applauded her for her legal knowledge, but castigated her for attacking me personally and accusing me of being anti-gay when I am nothing of the kind.


Well, that only like the 199th denial on this thread.


So unless you standup and scream how proud you are for gay people and support everything they do then you are a bigot or a hatemonger?

I've said it before and I will say it again. You can not make racial equality and gay equality the same beast. They are 2 different beasts and one has much more credence then the other.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 12:42 am
ehBeth wrote:
The House of Commons voted to adopt controversial legislation that will make Canada the third country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage.

Congratulations -- I'm happy for Canada!
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 02:11 am
Very Happy
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 07:44 am
Debra_Law wrote:

Exactly!

Personally, I don't know how the "religious" folk are able to compartmentalize their sentiments and separate their moral disapproval of the alleged sin from their moral disapproval of the alleged sinner.


Sorry you don't understand this small concept. Maybe you should try thinking about it a little bit. Try this idea out. We don't morally disapprove of the sinner because we ourselves are sinners in the same boat. Everyone sins. If thought about that way, it would be kinda hard to hate everyone. Including ourselves. But you won't get that.

Debra_Law wrote:

Moral disapproval alone, whether based on personal biases or hate or religious beliefs (which I do not believe can be separated and compartmentalized in a manner to eliminate biases or hate), can never serve as a legitimate basis for unequal treatment of the persons (believed to be sinners by some) through the operation of laws. That's oppression, plain and simple. Tyranny in the name of religion is still tyranny.


Who is asking that the be treated unequally? They are asking that laws be changed to accomodate their belief that marriage is something different than the union of a man and a woman. Marriage laws currently treat myself and gays exactly the same.

Debra_Law wrote:

It is not rational or legitimate in a diverse country such as ours for the religious folk to force their personally-held religious views on society as a whole through the operation of laws. We require our government to be secular for a compelling reason--so that ALL citizens (the religious folk and the non-religious folk; the straights and the gays; the blacks and the whites; etc.) can all live equally in our national society without fear of discriminatory treatment; share equally in the social and economic benefits of our citizenship; and share equally in the political processes of a religious-neutral government.


We all are living equally, sharing equally the benefits of citizenship and the political processes. If anyone wishes to change the laws, we all have the opportunity to attempt to do so. Momentum for change begins with convincing people that something is wrong. Calling people homophobic for THINKING differently than they do, for whatever reason, is not going to help reach a solution to this issue, just as the people on the other side who spit venom at a person for being gay will not help. The point is, there are wackos on both sides, but the majority of people, gay, straight, religious, non-religious, black, white or whatever, are somewhere in the middle and I think a solution can be found that would make this majority happy without changing the definition of what a marriage is.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:55 am
Debra_Law wrote:
Scrat wrote:
Since you seem to have missed where I mentioned this to you before, let me use bold to note that I support the creation of same-gender unions in my state.


I'm sorry if you believe that I jumped to conclusions with respect to your position on this issue.

It isn't something I believe, it's what you did, as anyone who can read can tell.

Debra_Law wrote:
Based on the above, then you ARE a proponent of the equal protection clause of the United States Constitution, an opponent of discrimination based on sexual orientation, and a supporter of same-sex marriage?

Or are you one of those who support "civil unions" for same-sex couples while reserving "marriage" for opposite-sex couples?

I am one of those I don't care what you call it as long as you extend the same liberties to all. I think those making a big deal about what word we use--on both sides of this issue--are missing the point. It's as absurd to think that two men being "married" somehow harms my marriage, as it is to assume that giving two men the identical rights and privileges under some other name harms them in some way.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:57 am
CR said
Quote:
Who is asking that the be treated unequally? They are asking that laws be changed to accomodate their belief that marriage is something different than the union of a man and a woman. Marriage laws currently treat myself and gays exactly the same.


You are, clearly so. You are asking/demanding that your value system be given priority over another value system. Your justification for requiring this priority status is tradition and/or majority preference. But neither of those justifications are sufficient.

The majority of certain states once held that lynching of slaves was not terribly problematic because, under the natural order of things, blacks were sub-human. Biblical passages allowing for the accumulation of slaves were advanced in support of this 'value system'.

In the late seventeen hundreds, women had no vote and no legal ability to hold government office. This was the tradition. It was the majority preference, at that time.

We understand now that both situations sat in deep and cruel conflict with the principles of the US constitution. Looking back, we can easily understand how folks at the time would simply imbibe these values from the community around them, believe them, and even fight to retain them. But that does not make them right, nor you in the present, either constitutionally nor morally.

Changing the definition of 'marriage' is not logically different from changing the definition of 'citizen'. Can you explain how it might be?

Once, not long ago at all, it was illegal in some juristictions for whites and blacks to marry. Blacks were free to marry blacks, and whites were free to marry whites, but they were not allowed to marry each other. Clearly, such laws were predicated on racist notions. Equally clearly, the rewriting or changing of such laws increased liberty and equality for citizens. Had a black person and a white person undergone the wedding ceremony back then, the existing definition of marriage would have been violated.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 09:37 am
blatham wrote:
CR said
Quote:
Who is asking that the be treated unequally? They are asking that laws be changed to accomodate their belief that marriage is something different than the union of a man and a woman. Marriage laws currently treat myself and gays exactly the same.


You are, clearly so. You are asking/demanding that your value system be given priority over another value system. Your justification for requiring this priority status is tradition and/or majority preference. But neither of those justifications are sufficient.

The majority of certain states once held that lynching of slaves was not terribly problematic because, under the natural order of things, blacks were sub-human. Biblical passages allowing for the accumulation of slaves were advanced in support of this 'value system'.

In the late seventeen hundreds, women had no vote and no legal ability to hold government office. This was the tradition. It was the majority preference, at that time.

We understand now that both situations sat in deep and cruel conflict with the principles of the US constitution. Looking back, we can easily understand how folks at the time would simply imbibe these values from the community around them, believe them, and even fight to retain them. But that does not make them right, nor you in the present, either constitutionally nor morally.

Changing the definition of 'marriage' is not logically different from changing the definition of 'citizen'. Can you explain how it might be?

Once, not long ago at all, it was illegal in some juristictions for whites and blacks to marry. Blacks were free to marry blacks, and whites were free to marry whites, but they were not allowed to marry each other. Clearly, such laws were predicated on racist notions. Equally clearly, the rewriting or changing of such laws increased liberty and equality for citizens. Had a black person and a white person undergone the wedding ceremony back then, the existing definition of marriage would have been violated.


First Blatham, you err, in my opinion, in comparing the gay marriage movement to civil rights legislation. You will disagree with my opinion, but that's what makes for good discussion. The difference, IMO, is that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. We can argue that point all day and it won't change my belief. Nor will I change yours. Maybe I'm being obstinate. Or maybe you are in believing it is not a choice. So comparing the historical situation blacks were in and the current situation of not being able to marry someone of the same sex is just not valid.

The definition of marriage has never changed in this country. It has always been the union of a man and a woman. Restrictions were placed on those unions by various states at various times for various reasons. Most states do not allow a person to marry a close blood relative. Historically, many southern states had laws outlawing marriage between persons of different races. Society came to view those laws as wrong and they were changed or just ignored. But the definition of marriage was still the same....the union of a man and a woman.

Now society may decide some day that the historic definition of marriage should be changed to include gay couples. But it won't be done by forcing that agenda down the throats of the majority. Work to change people's minds. Don't throw insults at them or tell them they are homophobic because they have homosexual tendencies that they are denying or any of the other things the radicals in the gay community do (See Chrissee's posts as a great example, imo).
0 Replies
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 09:45 am
Quote:
First Blatham, you err, in my opinion, in comparing the gay marriage movement to civil rights legislation. You will disagree with my opinion, but that's what makes for good discussion. The difference, IMO, is that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice.


Did you choose your sexual orientation? Whatever that might happen to be?

Your opinion is not supported by fact.
0 Replies
 
 

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