Former Republican Gov Mitch Daniels Has Legit Purdue Buy And Integrate For-Profit Kaplan University

@maxdancona,

I drug you into it because your name was fresh in my mind!

The problem is the government is less picky about their loans. As long as kids are passing (which is not difficult given my own experiences with college coursework) they keep handing them out. The schools really don't care because they are the ones benefiting the most: they all get well paying jobs with great benefits, and almost total job security unless they REALLY screw up. They keep the coursework easy enough to ensure the maximum number of students qualify for assistance and just hard enough to call it college.

1 Reply

@tibbleinparadise,

First of all, I am flattered that you are thinking about me. I am the money behind the US government (at least some of it), so your example is a real one. And, as someone who is funding government loans for education, I do care where the money is coming from.

I also personally know a dean (at the University of Rochester), and a couple of professors at private colleges in the Boston area. These professionals spend their time talking about education. They are excited about education. They care deeply about education. When I sit down with my dean friend for a couple of beers as I do from time to time, we inevitably talk about ways the University can make education better, things that he is getting done, and frustration over things that he feel should be done at the University but can push through.

I don't remember any of my friends in higher education talking about the finances. It isn't a field you go into only for the money... there are other fields for this.

The idea that these professionals only care about money is simply false.

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@maxdancona,

I'm not talking about the professors, I'm sure they care enough. It's the folks that sit behind desks, the folks in charge of administering the loans. Public college payrolls are public information and easily available. My home state university has no less than 30-40 people all earning over $500,000 a year. The coaches are all earning six - seven figure salaries.

I'm getting way off track here though. My point is there are many people making money off student loans than will never set foot in a classroom as an educator. The banks earning interest off loans. Collection agencies earning money off delinquent loans.

And I'm a tax payer as well, but that doesn't mean my opinion matters when universities start handing out loans. A class just last semester had writing examples that should make a junior high English teacher weep. I personally know college students that are in school for no other reason than to get loans and grants and to enjoy the free money. Education is secondary to the opportunity to not really work for 4-5 years while they goof off and do things like bike across Canada.

I know there are good students and good teachers. As somebody IN school and surrounded by a pretty varied demographic of students, we have a lot of money being wasted.

1 Reply

@tibbleinparadise,

Quote:

And I'm a tax payer as well, but that doesn't mean my opinion matters when universities start handing out loans.

If the government is guaranteeing the loans, or subsidizing them in any way, than my opinion absolutely matters. A legitimate college will put a failing student on academic probation leading to them being expelled from the school. This is one way that real colleges protect their own reputation and the money of tax payers.

I am not talking about the banks. There is no question that for the commercial banks it is a profit item. It is above board and I don't see a problem with it. We have a free market finance system and it serves its purpose very efficiently. I do think that the government can and should refuse to do business with banks who don't fulfill their purpose with integrity and competence.

It isn't a perfect system. But, having the government regulate institutions that benefit from government money seems pretty logical an pretty important to this tax payer.

(I concede the point about the ridiculousness, and the corrupting influence of college sports.)

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I suppose I mean "my opinion doesn't matter in any way that is going to effect anything". Of course our opinions matter, it just might not do a lot of good. Smile

I think we actually agree for the most part, I'm just a little more leary of how well the system works (I also don't trust the government to get a lot right)

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@McGentrix,

Quote Blickers:

Quote:

Despite your despair, the high school students going to legit colleges have to pass exams, get scores on SATs or ACTs and possibly have to pass state exams in order to graduate. The people going to these for-profit colleges usually didn't have the marks to get into legit college, the work in the classes are not comparable to the work turned in by normal college students and by and large their degrees were worth very little when they graduated.

Quote McGentrix:

Quote:

I'll just go ahead and say that is total bullshit.

Ummm, sure. Evidence is evidence.

Will a For-Profit Degree Help You Get a Job?

Education Department data show associate- and certificate-program graduates face low salaries and high debt.

Philosophy majors at liberal-arts colleges used to have the best claim to unemployable—or at least underemployable—futures. But students at for-profit colleges and universities are also finding that their degrees too often fail to translate into well-paying jobs. New data from the Education Department suggest that for-profit schools usually don't deliver on their promises to prepare students for successful careers. Of the more than 5,000 career programs for which the agency has recent earnings data, 72 percent offered by for-profits produce graduates who earn less than high school dropouts. (The comparable figure for programs at public institutions is 32 percent.)

As it prepares to regulate career programs, the federal agency has collected and published average post-graduation earnings and student-debt information for relevant associate's degrees and lower-level certificates. The data don't include other factors that influence employment, like student demographics, the strength of the local economy, or prior work experience. But they may provide the most detailed picture yet of which career credentials are valuable to employers and affordable for students. It turns out that the short-term programs that for-profit students are most likely to complete are also the most likely to fail the Education Department's proposed "gainful employment" measures.

"You've got a bunch of graduate programs that by and large look OK. You've got some bachelor's programs that look OK. Where you see the high failure rate is the associates' and certificate programs," says Ben Miller, senior policy analyst in the education policy program at the New America Foundation, referring to for-profit education.

Here's one example from the Education Department's data: In San Antonio, Texas, holders of licensed practical-nurse certificates from for-profit Kaplan College can expect to earn $36,730 and owe $1,759 in student-loan payments per year, on average. Holders of the same credential from St. Phillips College, a public two-year institution, can expect to earn $42,760 and owe $382 per year.

Despite typically higher costs and levels of student debt, for-profit education institutions make up a fast-growing sector that serves 13 percent of college students, most of whom are seeking a certificate or associate's degree. They range from small outfits like the Flint Institute of Barbering in Michigan to massive publicly traded companies like the University of Phoenix.

In the student population they serve and the programs they offer, for-profits most resemble community colleges. Sixty-three percent of students attending for-profit institutions have low enough incomes to qualify for federal Pell grants, according to the Congressional Budget Office. The sector also enrolls disproportionate numbers of African-American and Hispanic students.

But for-profits charge tuition like private not-for-profits, while offering less institutional financial aid. Low-income students who might pay nothing out-of-pocket at a public institution, thanks to grant aid, pay about $8,000 in tuition at a for-profit school, according to a 2011 report from The College Board. Students take out loans to make up the difference. According to the Education Department, for-profit students account for about 31 percent of all student loans and nearly half of all loan defaults.

Legislation dating to the 1960s compels the Education Department to make sure that federal financial-aid dollars only flow to career programs that result in "gainful employment." The standard—which has never been defined—applies to almost all programs offered by for-profit institutions and to certain associate's degrees and certifications at public and private not-for-profit institutions.

The Obama administration has been particularly alarmed by the high student-debt and loan-default rates associated with for-profit colleges. It wants to define "gainful employment" using two measures: the share of a graduate's income that goes to student loan payments, and the rate at which graduates default on their federal loans.

"In some sense, the for-profits need to be doing better to be as good of a deal," says David Deming, an assistant professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. "Because if you're borrowing three times as much money, and you're getting the same outcome, well then it's worse, right?"

So far, say researchers, we don't know much about the earnings payoff associated with for-profits. Most independent research on the sector has relied on survey data, and comparing for-profits to other sectors is tricky because for-profits often offer degrees that aren't available elsewhere. A 2012 study co-authored by Deming found that graduates of for-profits—after controlling for student characteristics—earn less than comparable graduates of other schools, mostly because for-profit graduates are less likely to be employed. And a 2013 Boston University study found little payoff to certificates from any kind of institution, expect for those credentials required for certain jobs.

Stephanie Rigg Cellini of George Washington University and Latika Chaudhary of Scripps College have calculated that for-profit associate's degrees give students a 4 percent increase in earnings per year of education. But students would need an increase of 9 percent to make their degrees worth the cost.

The for-profit industry says it's being unfairly targeted. "If the regulation were applied to all of higher education, programs like a bachelor's degree in journalism from Northwestern University, a law degree from George Washington University Law School, and a bachelor's degree in social work from Virginia Commonwealth University would all be penalized," Steve Gunderson, president and CEO of the Association of Private Sector Colleges and Universities, said in a statement.

All types of colleges are increasingly under pressure to prove that they're worth rising tuition prices. From the Obama administration's proposed college-rating system to state performance-funding formulas, policymakers are pushing to make sure taxpayer resources go to institutions that graduate students in a reasonable amount of time, at a reasonable cost, and with a reasonable chance of getting a decent-paying job.

The Education Department's proposed gainful employment standard may never come into force. Rule-making has dragged on for years, delayed in part by federal court cases. But legislative efforts are increasingly making public statistics like post-graduation earnings for a wide range of institutions. That's the kind of information prospective students in search of well-paying jobs sorely need to know.
Source

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@Baldimo,

Quote Fortune article:

Quote:

They found that [for profit students] "on average associate's and bachelor's degree students experience a decline in earnings after attendance, relative to their own earnings in years prior to attendance," according to a summary of the report published by the National Bureau of Economic Research.

Quote Baldimo:

Quote:

I can explain part of this. Most of the people going to these schools are going to be older people and not late teens/early 20's. They have already been working in another line of work and went to school to learn new and different skills. Once they learn these skills and graduate they change careers into their new line of work. In the process, they now have to start out at entry level pay until they get the experience that actually comes with their new line of work. I wonder if they check on those same people 10 years later what the results would be? If they stuck with the new line of work, they will see an increased income that was higher than their previous line of work.

They did check later. They found, for instance, that practical nurse graduates from Kaplan made $36,000 when they got their first job as opposed to public community college grads who made $42,000. And the for-profit grads owed WAY more money.

Overall, for profit colleges make up 31 percent of college loans but become about half of all loan defaults.

1 Reply

@Blickers,

Quote:

They did check later. They found, for instance, that practical nurse graduates from Kaplan made $36,000 when they got their first job as opposed to public community college grads who made $42,000. And the for-profit grads owed WAY more money.

They checked later and found that they started out with different salaries? That doesn't say anything about the long term pay off for those people. In fact one of the first sentences in one of the paragraphs said this:

Quote:

So far, say researchers, we don't know much about the earnings payoff associated with for-profits.

That doesn't stop the article from trying though.

Quote:

Overall, for profit colleges make up 31 percent of college loans but become about half of all loan defaults.

I like the mix of exact and rounding used in this bit. I wonder what they mean by "about half", 47% or 41%?

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@Baldimo,

Quote Baldimo:

Quote:

They checked later and found that they started out with different salaries? That doesn't say anything about the long term pay off for those people.

No, that would take 20 years. However, the for-profit grads start off at significantly lower salaries than the public community college grads. You think that 10 years down the line for-profit grads suddenly turn on the jets and start to average MORE than the community college grads? Why?

Quote article:

Quote:

So far, say researchers, we don't know much about the earnings payoff associated with for-profits.

Quote Baldimo:

Quote:

That doesn't stop the article from trying though.

In complex systems, (economic and otherwise), a change in one statistic generally causes a change in several other statistics. A change in the number of Full Time jobs, for instance, will also affect house sales, tax revenue, etc. Here, all the stats indicate that for-profit colleges give you a degree that is not worth nearly what one from a cheaper public university supplies. Even a relatively low level job like a practical nurse, (which does not require anywhere near the education of a registered nurse), puts the for-profit graduate in the hole compared to the public college grad when they start off. And the writers of the article are being kind, otherwise they would include the fact that percentagewise, more than twice the students who start for-profit college fail to complete their degree than public college students in all the statistics.

Overall, I haven't seen you produce a single fact or statistic to support the idea that for-profit colleges aren't an expensive scam for the students who buy their educations there. All we see from you is criticism of studies that show that they are scams. That doesn't help your case.

1 Reply

@Blickers,

Quote:

No, that would take 20 years. However, the for-profit grads start off at significantly lower salaries than the public community college grads. You think that 10 years down the line for-profit grads suddenly turn on the jets and start to average MORE than the community college grads? Why?

That is going to depend on what each has done in the last 10 years. Experience pays off and of course the employer also makes a difference. Did either student continue their education or only rely on their initial degree? There are a whole host of questions and it doesn't take 20 years. It would be easy to get back with these same people and see how they are doing in 5 year increments, that would tell a story.

Quote:

Overall, I haven't seen you produce a single fact or statistic to support the idea that for-profit colleges aren't an expensive scam for the students who buy their educations there.

Ok, here's a fact. I attended Coleman College in San Diego in 99-00, I had been a carpenter for the 5 years prior to that and wanted a change in careers. When I left the trade, I was making about $15 hr. Coleman College cost about 12k for the program I joined and half the cost was covered by a grant and the rest I paid for via student loan. The classes were 8 hours a day 5 days a week and lasted for 8 months. I didn't earn a degree but a certificate and my first job in the field paid about $10 hr, now I'm making over $80k a year. I'm only limited now by the work I choose and the city I live in. If I were to move to a larger city than Denver, I would easily make over $100k. Would I make more money with a "real" degree? It's a good chance I would but I make pretty good money as it is and I enjoy my co-workers and the company I work for. If I would have stayed being a carpenter I highly doubt I would be making the money I am today. A for-profit/trade school was the best thing to happen to me. I got into the job force and started earning money quicker with the schooling I did vs going to a 4 year school. Keep in mind I was in my late 20's as well, so a four year school with a family wasn't really a viable option.

Former Republican Gov Mitch Daniels Has Legit Purdue Buy And Integrate For-Profit Kaplan University

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