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Anti-Muslim Dutch politicians in hiding after death threats

 
 
australia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Dec, 2004 05:40 am
Probably there is a lack of understanding and a lot of law abiding muslims are seen as terrorists. This is probably human nature. I was in Morrocco about 6 months after sep 11th, and was terrified, looking at every person there as though he was a terrorist ready to cut me to pieces. they were just normal people trying to make a living. The problem I believe is that is such a small proportion of muslims that is extremist, but this small proportion can cause so much damage.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 09:18 am
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Movies/HollandEndMulticultDream.wmv

Hirsi Ali appears in this film. Some subtitles in English.

I found it fascinating.

(Warning: Graphic photo, near the end, of Van Gogh's murder.)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 04:43 pm
Can I just say, a propos of nothing in particular except that I just happened to come across it, that after reading an item like this, I won't wonder at anything a conservative American thinks of Holland, or, well, Europe, the world, anymore? What a twisted world view. If this is the garbage you Fox viewers out there get served with, I'm surprised some of you can still be reasoned with at all.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 04:56 pm
I first read about the euthanasia story from an AP reporter on Yahoo news.

I suppose there are some who read or watch only fox and I'm sure there are some who only read or listen to a liberal or leftist point of view.

I'd imagine there's no reasoning with either of those fringe groups.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041130/ap_on_re_eu/netherlands_child_euthanasia
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 06:17 pm
nimh wrote:
Can I just say, a propos of nothing in particular except that I just happened to come across it, that after reading an item like this, I won't wonder at anything a conservative American thinks of Holland, or, well, Europe, the world, anymore? What a twisted world view. If this is the garbage you Fox viewers out there get served with, I'm surprised some of you can still be reasoned with at all.


Oh, it ain't just Fox liftin' an editorial eyebrow at Dutch euthanasia, and The Roman Catholic Church has taken Disapproving Notice as well. Besides all of that, the whole deal ain't by any measure a new or isolated flap , either.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 07:01 pm
JustWonders wrote:
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Movies/HollandEndMulticultDream.wmv

Hirsi Ali appears in this film. Some subtitles in English.

I found it fascinating.

Thanks for the link, JW. It's all in English, so, a good source for all you Americans. I'm glad you found it.

It's a pretty standard introduction to the topic from an abroad perspective, and I mean that as a good thing - as in, a regular enough take on things (which I'm already quite happy with after that Fox column just now). Most of whats said is fair enough and overall it gives a pretty full and balanced picture of the current situation. And the report does include a variety of viewpoints.

On that latter count tho, I do - unsurprisingly - have a few asides to make (hey - I was keeping notes).

First off, note that the very first person who is interviewed or quoted in the report is Michiel Smit. He's the one who gets to introduce the question of the troubles young Moroccans are causing ("there are quite big groups who are trafficking drugs", etc). Forsure, next up will be Samira Abbos, which is all fine, but - back up the truck here just for a second. The Danish report introduces Michiel Smit simply as "Party leader The New Right". Which he is. But just in case you might be thinking that - what, with him being the first guy to be interviewed and all - we are talking a significant player here, let me add that the New Right, in the only nationwide elections it's taken part in thus far (the European ones), was:
a) the party furthest to the right of all of the some fifteen parties on the ballot and
b) despite Smit being a most charismatic young man, successful in winning just 0,3% of the vote.
Before that, Smit was #2 on the list of the Conservatives.nl in the last parliamentary elections - which got 0,0% of the vote (rounded off).

Now the person who did the English subtitling did add some extra info, introducing Smit as a "Rotterdam city councillor for the List Pim Fortuyn". And he was indeed one of the some 16 or 18 councillors elected there two years ago in the landslide election victory of Liveable Rotterdam, then fronted by Pim Fortuyn himself. But he has since been expelled by Livable Rotterdam because he was too radical even for them - and specifically, because he refused to cut his ties with neo-nazi groups.

Just to put his appearance in a bit of context, here.

Smit's appearance as the first expert to speak does betray a certain slant in the report. Not necessarily a slant to the right, mind you. More a bit of a sensationalist slant. I mean, most of the time the report is fair, forsure - and you cant say it doesnt include people from all sides. But just to give another example: later in the report they cover a conference, which is introduced as including "moderates as well as more extreme participants". Now I remember that conference I think (tho I didnt go myself); it was a well-intended but rather bold move by MZine, the rather trendy magazine for young Dutch Moroccans, and the idea was to really get even the most extremes talking together. So everyone was there, all the far fringes. And I find it a tad disingenuous for a report to observe that it's perhaps become too hard to build bridges between the communities in Holland anymore, and then by ways of proof use the occasion to interview someone from the Arab-European League and someone from a group called Forza Holland. I mean, the AEL is the Moroccan-Dutch (and Moroccan-Belgian) equivalent of Malcolm X. And Forza Holland is a nationalist and highly obscure group - even I've only ever heard of it once. So I mean, you can also just go find the evidence you need to support your assertion, of course. Its kinda like a Dutch TV crew interviewing David Duke and Al Sharpton (provided the two would ever be able to meet at a conference), and concluding that "the problem of racism in America might not be solvable anymore".

Check: nine minutes into the report, we have happily seen many different Moroccan/Turkish voices with a range of views, but the ethnic Dutch have only been represented yet by two extreme rightists who among them represent just about 0,2% of the Dutch electorate.

So that on an aside. I must admit it was compensated somewhat by hearing Rita Verdonk, our right-wing minister of integration and asylum and, apart from Geert Wilders, the politician to most fiercely have taken the strict line on Muslims and immigrants, address a direct message to Hirsi Ali. Not just because it was interesting and even moving (if a bit gratuitous), but also - I'm admitting a guilty pleasure here - because it included the line "I am fighting for all our liberal rights" - which must have confused American conservatives watching the video no end Mr. Green

The one thing that did annoy me, of course, was the occasional remark added by the subtitler. For example, when the report interviews that Arab-European League guy and he talks about how the Dutch are now just going on and on about how everyone must integrate, and he's "against that", the person doing the subtitles has inserted "What about emigrate?". Err, well, the guy in question is from a generation that was born in Holland. So emigrate where, exactly? It gets worse in the ninth minute, when an articulate young Moroccan girl talks about how the Dutch like to think they're tolerant, but they're only tolerant as long as you dont "enter their comfort zone", at which the subtitler inserts, "Exactly, when you are raping our daughters, and robbing our grandmothers". Rolling Eyes

Anyway, the subtitlers declare themselves sufficiently at the end, when they superimpose this caption: "This was Horisont [..] a production by Danmarks Radio. A State owned company which has been promoting the multicultural society through many years. As well as defaming Nationalists. Although a certain change in attitude has been made, The daily brainwashing routine keeps going as usual. Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing." Well, in turn I'll forgive the Nationalist subtitler for his two inserts, for there were just two and fair's fair, they did translate all of this report. And laying it next to Fox's take, that surely must be a useful thing. They even included Horisont's web address in that last caption, the sweethearts.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 07:07 pm
For the record, my outrage re: the Fox column wasnt about Fox raising the issue of Dutch euthanasia practices in the first place, but (obviously, I would have thought) the way it did so. (And yes, I know its a column. Its also just totally out there.)

Meanwhile tho, JW, thanks for the additional AP link on the story:

Quote:
However, experts acknowledge that doctors euthanize routinely in the United States and elsewhere, but that the practice is hidden.

"Measures that might marginally extend a child's life by minutes or hours or days or weeks are stopped. This happens routinely, namely, every day," said Lance Stell, professor of medical ethics at Davidson College in Davidson, N.C., and staff ethicist at Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, N.C. "Everybody knows that it happens, but there's a lot of hypocrisy. Instead, people talk about things they're not going to do."
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 07:29 pm
Nimh - I knew exactly what you were referring to when you brought up the Fox article. After reading it, I didn't blame you. I know you also realize that I, as a conservative, read similar outrageous ridiculousness from some of the more liberal columnists as well.

You and I both know that all rational people take this kind of stuff with a grain of salt (recognizing it for what it is), although I was happy to be set straight (by you) on that erroneous report by Fox of the "thousands and thousands" of Muslims being deported as a result of the Van Gogh murder.

As to your post about the "End of the Multicultural Dream" film, I may have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind. I have to watch it again, after reading your interesting and thoughtful commentary.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 07:41 pm
Sure, go ahead! Its been a pleasure to talk with you on this thread.
0 Replies
 
australia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 07:49 pm
On, the Van Gogh murder though, it is a sad state of affairs when a person cannot say anything in his own country without being in fear of being murdered.
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 07:53 pm
Heh, I misunderstood that sentence the first time I read it. I got it to mean that dutch people faced death treaths for saying anything.
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australia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 08:01 pm
Well, any person who says anything against Islam takes a risk being murdered. Fair enough, if you travel to the middle east or a muslim country, I can understand there being a risk. But in your own country? It is crazy!
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 08:15 pm
I actually think only high profile people who say something exessively critical of Islam in the media have anything to fear. I agree they shouldn't have, and that this is a problem.
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australia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 08:33 pm
Agreed!
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 09:18 pm
nimh wrote:
Sure, go ahead! Its been a pleasure to talk with you on this thread.


Well, I have to say that after watching the film a second time and then re-reading your post, it did make me see things from a different perspective.

Before I forget - my favorite quote was also from Verdonk...when she told that Imam who refused to shake her hand "well, we'll certainly have something to talk about in the future" (paraphrasing) LOL. I guess she's the one who introduced the bill (or however you do it there) that they all speak Dutch.

So, I'm still a bit confused, but that's not unusual LOL. I'm wondering why they chose Smit as their first spokesperson (or interview), given his relatively low political ranking. Perhaps none of the more well-known politicians wanted to go on record? Or perhaps they saw it as a waste of time or had more important things to do (seriously).

Now that you've alerted us to the "extra" and super-imposed subtitles, I agree that was a bit amateurish of them (maybe something Fox would pull, LOL). That one kid you described as being "that Arab League guy" - he astounded me when he said that Van Gogh's murderer "didn't appear to have the strength to fight the system in a 'democratic' way". It was almost as if he was condoning murder as an alternate method, or at the least, making excuses for it.

I'd never seen Hirsi Ali on film, so hearing her speak intrigued me. I can't imagine what her life is like at this moment, but she comes across as rather calm, cool and collected (very intelligent - from that short interview - as well).

I remember reading about that conference, so it was interesting to see it in action. I thought they rather glossed over it, although what else could they do. I was left with the impression it was fairly inconclusive. It did surprise me to see the few comments asking the rhetorical question "maybe the Dutch aren't as tolerant as they wish to portray themselves?" Which leads me to ask you if you think it's more a form of extreme political correctness and, if so, do you think the two (political correctness and socialism) are compatible?

The most shocking thing to me from your commentary was your revelation of Smit's association with a neo-Nazi group. Wow. He doesn't look the type, LOL. (Thinking skinheads here).

I enjoyed the personal aspect of the film - when they interviewed the Moroccan restauranteur. Have you ever been there? He just seemed so....resigned. Resigned to forever being an outsider...to his kids (born and raised there) forever being outsiders. He was so humble about it. Not whiny in tone at all. It made me feel a kind of sympathy for him.

In the meantime, I found this article about the jihadists attempts at attacking Amsterdam's red light district. C'mon, Nimh......is nothing sacred ??

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=1&story_id=14924&name=Pizza+courier+%27targeted%27+Amsterdam+sex+zone
0 Replies
 
australia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 09:38 pm
As long as they don't attempt to ban the space cakes and replace them with halal bread.
I would never go back to the Netherlands if this was the case!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 06:51 pm
Hey JW. I was reading your questions, and I remembered something. The week after Van Gogh's murder, there was a brilliant article in the newspaper. In it, the Dutch female journalist joined someone of that Arab European League on a tour of an inner city neighbourhood. I'd wanted to translate it for this thread, but hadnt gotten round to it.

I found the article back today, and whaddayaknow - it was Nabil Marmouch himself, the guy you saw interviewed in the Danish report, who took her on the 'excursion'. I think the resulting report says a lot to put Marmouch's remarks in the report in context. And why I compared his AEL with Malcolm X.

Plus, I'm sure you'll all enjoy the article. It's funny. And it's very true to life ;-).

At the very least, it will perhaps clarify a little what I'm on about, when I remark again and again on how I look at those news reports about the state of Holland, the ones from abroad like the Danish one or the Fox ones you cited included, and I see what they're on about, and sometimes all of what they say is factually true, and yet I don't recognize the picture they put up from what I see around myself in every day life - you know?

Quote:

To the hairdressers with Marmouch

What do young muslims talk about, at the end of a momentous week? A visit to the hairdresser with AEL-leader Nabil Marmouch.

By our editor
Margriet Oostveen
de Volkskrant

[my translation - apologies for any mistakes ...]

THE HAGUE, 13 NOVEMBER. Nabil Marmouch has shaven his head, but still he proposes going to the hairdresssers. It's Friday afternoon, just one more day to the Suikerfeest [Dunno the English word - the islamic celebration at the end of the Ramadan]. That's why hairdresser Vatan in the Transvaal neighbourhood of The Hague is cramped full with young men.

They send text messages on silvercoloured little cellphones, pensively fiddle with shiny earstuds and wait. Some of them for four hours already. From up to out in Ypenburg they come to Vatan, which has a cheesy interior but is superhip among young Moroccans, Turks and hindustanis.

The idea was to take a walk together through a neigbourhood where many young muslims live. Nabil Marmouch (29) is the chair of AEL-NL, the Dutch branch of Dyab Abou Jahjah's militant Arab-European League. They are in the process of founding a new political party, the Democratic Muslim Party, with which the AEL-NL wants to take part in the 2006 local elections. The question was whether tumultuous weeks like last week will bring the AEL much support. The AEL-NL is against the "dehumanisation" of muslims. The AEL-NL is also against "an empty phrase like integration", as Marmouch calls it himself. But Marmouch says he doesn't know how many people registered with the AEL the past week.

There is a little wall inside Vatan hairdressers. Behind it is another small space for women. The latest news here is: don't eat chicken from McDonalds! There's pork in it! In Vatan it is possible to then all in the same breath start about Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The Moroccan boyfriend of hindustani Varisha Barthoe (21), she says, is carping at Hirsi Ali for a week now. It's driving her bonkers. "I just cant talk with him anymore for a week now, man!", she laughs out loud. "He is fierce since Theo van Gogh. It's just ridiculous. He says: that's what you get for putting the Quran on a naked woman!" The ladies agree on this much: you're insane if you murder Van Gogh, and Hirsi Ali is crazy too.

The female hairdresser: "In my Quran it says nowhere that you can hit women, I can tell you that!"

Whooping. Yeah! No way! Not in mine either!

Then on to other stuff. Whether there's really ham in hamka crisps. Because those be good. Is there ham in 'em? ****!

Back to the men.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Hakan Berberoglu: "A bitch."

Mohammed A.: "Needs psychological help." Mohammed A. does not want to say what his last name is because he's a bit fed up with it all. "If he's Mohammed B., then I can be Mohammed A." Mohammed A. (24) studies chemistry at the University of Amsterdam, he's in his last year. Born in Holland, Moroccan parents, has many Dutch friends and with all that tries to pray five times a day. Doesn't always make it. Not yet, says Mohammed.

Now half the place starts to interfere. What's just too much, they call out in a to and fro, is that Hirsi Ali is now even agitating against circumcision. Someone down the line: "Stay off of my thing!" Laughs.

Hakan Berberoglu: "Isn't that just as insane as proposing that the Dutch shouldn't eat any more pork?" Berberoglu (19) is a second year-student of business administration at the Erasmus University in Rotterdam. Born in Holland, Turkish parents, considers himself muslim but he doesn't fast [during this Ramadan season].

But Hirsi Ali is allowed to say all that, isn't she? Of course, the Vatan customers say. They're not all that dangerous here, Mohammed A. says jovially. "Are you comfy enough there?" Hirsi Ali has become an alarm word for you, Mohammed mutters. As if that's all you use to decide who is good and who is bad.

Have they seen friends or acquaintances radicalise, lately?

Hakan Berberoglu: "Its totally different things that strike us. For example, a month ago I was reading Spits [free daily newspaper, distributed in buses and trains], and I see the strangest news I ever read. Just a few lines: Since 1996 the number of muslims born in Holland is rising. End of item. Are you going to be keeping stats of how many muslims go to the supermarket next?"

Mohammed A.: "But I do understand some things too. I understand why the managers of discos wont let in Moroccans. I wouldn't either. Because then the girls won't come anymore, because Moroccans are so aggressive."

AEL-leader Marmouch: "What are you saying? Are now even Moroccans starting to hate themselves? You've just internalised the Dutch prejudices!"

Marmouch tells about his Democratic Muslim Party.

Hakan Berberoglu: "Don't you think we'd be going back a little to the polarisation that way? To the sixties?"

Marmouch: "It's like a football competition! Do you want to stand by the lines? Or in their team, on their terms? Or do you want to play in your own way? Then you need to start your own team!"

Berberoglu: "I just hear our own, our own, our own. Why do you need to start a party of your own for Islam? We were imported in this country, you know!"

Marmouch: "Not true! I was born here! And you too! You have the same rights as the Dutch! I do here whatever I want."

Berberoglu: "Oh come on, man. You don't live here on your own, you know!"

Marmouch: "You are stuck in an inferiority complex! You don't stand up for yourself!"

Berberoglu: "If you want to come with a party of your own, then you'll only feed the notion that we muslims want to isolate ourselves."

Marmouch: "You have the mentality of that eleven-year old boy in Uden! That boy that doesn't dare to go to a school that's got "islamic" on it anymore!"

Berberoglu: "So you'll found an islamic party. Great. But why does it have to have the word "islamic" in it? Why not the Democratic Allochthonous Party?" ["Allochthonous" is the word most commonly used in Holland to define immigrants and their children (and grandchildren) - the only container term available for all of 'em, Surinamese, Turkish, Moroccan etc, and as such gradually getting out of fashion.]

Marmouch now explodes.

"Because! I! Am! Not! Allochthonous! And you're not either! And we shouldn't be ashamed of being muslim!" Calmer: "And everybody can come and join us."

Berberoglu: "So why don't you just call yourselves the Common Society Party?"

Now a voice resounds: "Gentlemen. GENTLEMEN. Enough!" It's the hairdresser who intervenes.

The other customers have listened breathlessly. The mood has indeed not improved. But Mohammed A., who's being cut now, is grinning to the mirror.

"I have always voted Green Left", Mohammed says softly. "Wouldn't have thought that, eh? For the animals and the plants. They can't help any of it, either, you know."

Only Nabil Marmouch has not quite gotten it yet. He stands up, in the middle of the shop. Looks around. And calls out: "Who here is for the AEL?"

All afternoon, its not once been this quiet at Vatan hairdressers.

0 Replies
 
australia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 11:18 pm
Nimh, what do most dutch people think about muslims? Are they aggressive towards them because of the van gogh murder, or tolerant? I read somewhere where there are an increase in extreme politically groups to the right? Is this true or just media making it up?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 12:13 am
I really don't have a lot of experiential reference to draw on, but what little I think I do know of The Dutch People leads me to guess theres quite a bit of mixed feelin's goin on there. All in all, I have the impression the Dutch are an extraordinarily tolerant folk, and what I take to be their somewhat quirky permissiveness aside, a pretty level headed bunch. On the one hand, I would think it very "Un-Dutch" to blanketly and prejudicially condem an entire ethnicity or faith. I think it a justified, and admirable, point of Dutch pride that they have room for just about anyone and any thought. On the other hand, there nas to be some sense of a swelling wave of immigrants, from among whom have come many legitimate sources of resentment, up to and including a level and sort of violence and disruption wholly foreign to the Dutch psyche and culture. That so many, and so many highly visible, perpetrators of that violence and disruption might be of a particular heritage, faith, and ethnicity must be a source of considerable angst among the Dutch. There is a very real, and growing, threat, regardless how that threat may be perceived or characterized. Dutch or not, its a human thing to mentally package things. The pile of things in front of the Dutch are a very hard assortment to package in any comforting manner. I wonder if there really is anything to the reports of an "Exodus" of the old-school Dutch middle class, and if it is fact, I wonder if perhaps just being unable to find any sense or rationale in what is going on might be the reason behind looking outward for a refuge from a world turned upside down.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 05:42 am
timberlandko wrote:
On the other hand, there nas to be some sense of a swelling wave of immigrants, from among whom have come many legitimate sources of resentment, up to and including a level and sort of violence and disruption wholly foreign to the Dutch psyche and culture. That so many, and so many highly visible, perpetrators of that violence and disruption might be of a particular heritage, faith, and ethnicity must be a source of considerable angst among the Dutch.

What are you talking about Timber?

Apart from the brutal murder of Van Gogh, I cant think of a single appearance of "a level and sort of violence and disruption wholly foreign to the Dutch psyche and culture". When you are talking about "so many, and so many highly visible, perpetrators of that violence", who are you talking about? What violence? For sure, Moroccans are more than average associated with street crime - just like Yugoslavs are associated with gangsterism - but unlike Turks, who overall have no such bad repute (so no religious nomer there) - but it doesn't sound like you're exactly talking about pickpockets, here. So what "so many perpetrators" are you talking about?

There's many things a groundswell of Dutch resentment focuses on when it comes to Muslims - the headscarves, their "taking over" of neighbourhoods, the mosques, the (perceived) backward treatment of women (and not just theirs), the anti-gay attitude, the overall loudness and bothersomeness of young Moroccans, the much-feared (but actually few in number) radical imams - but "so many, and so many highly visible, perpetrators of violence and disruption"? The fear of future such perpetrators, perhaps, now after Van Gogh's murder (who'll be next?), but thus far we've only seen this one event.

We have seen, however, a whole series of attacks on mosques and islamic schools since: arson attacks, molotov cocktails, perpetrated by "so many" white youths, some of whom caught. Makes you wonder about how "wholly foreign" such violence exactly is, to the Dutch. They definitely far outnumbered the two or three arson attacks on churches that followed in turn, in any case.

What did you guys think about that article I translated last night? I know it's long, but I put some work in it, you know! ;-)
0 Replies
 
 

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