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Anti-Muslim Dutch politicians in hiding after death threats

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 01:10 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
It was a representative sample. Therefore the results are representative. Overall there may not be 20,000 muslims in Spain who think violence is justified, it may be more or it may be less, but it aint zero[/i], and the results from the poll are statistically significant or no polling organisation would use them or publish them for fear of being totally discredited.


Well, it went down from 4% in last year's poll (see the poll's summary)
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 01:17 pm
well lets hope it halves again next year.

If it continues to go down by 50% every year from now until 2017, it will probably be true to say that residual number is statistically insignificant.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 01:23 pm
Interestingly the question to which those 2% opposed (sic!): "Nunca se debe utilizar la violencia para defender o difundir creencias religiosas."

Which translate to something like: "You should never use violence to defend or spread religious beliefs."

90% agreed here [8% no answer or didn't know] compared to 85% [11%] in 2006.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jan, 2008 02:11 pm
http://i32.tinypic.com/10durgx.jpg

Quote:
Violence fear over Islam film
Counter-terrorism alert as a Dutch right-winger launches a movie that will denounce the Koran


Jason Burke, Europe editor
Sunday January 20, 2008
The Observer

The Dutch government is bracing itself for violent protests following the scheduled broadcast this week of a provocative anti-Muslim film by a radical right-wing politician who has threatened to broadcast images of the Koran being torn up and otherwise desecrated.

Cabinet ministers and officials, fearing a repetition of the crisis sparked by the publication of cartoons of Muhammad in a Danish newspaper two years ago, have held a series of crisis meetings and ordered counter-terrorist services to draw up security plans. Dutch nationals overseas have been asked to register with their embassies and local mayors in the Netherlands have been put on standby.

Geert Wilders, one of nine members of the extremist VVD (Freedom) party in the 150-seat Dutch lower house, has promised that his film will be broadcast - on television or on the internet - whatever the pressure may be. It will, he claims, reveal the Koran as 'source of inspiration for intolerance, murder and terror'.
Dutch diplomats are already trying to pre-empt international reaction. 'It is difficult to anticipate the content of the film, but freedom of expression doesn't mean the right to offend,' said Maxime Verhagen, the Foreign Minister, who was in Madrid to attend the Alliance of Civilisations, an international forum aimed at reducing tensions between the Islamic world and the West. In Amsterdam, Rotterdam and other towns with large Muslim populations, imams say they have needed to 'calm down' growing anger in their communities.

Government officials hope that no mainstream media organisation will agree to show the film, although one publicly funded channel, Nova, initially agreed before pulling out. 'A broadcast on a public channel could imply that the government supported the project,' said an Interior Ministry spokesman.

Demonstrations are also expected from those opposed to Wilders beyond Holland's Muslim community - a number of left-wing activists have already been arrested - and from his supporters. Members of a group calling itself Stop Islamisation of Europe are planning to travel to Amsterdam. 'Geert Wilders is an elected politician who has made a film, and that he is under armed guard as a result is absolutely outrageous,' said Stephen Gash, a UK-based member, yesterday. 'It is all about free speech.'

In November 2004, anger and violence followed the stabbing and shooting by a Dutch teenager of Moroccan parentage of the controversial film-maker Theo Van Gogh, a distant relative of the artist.

The attacker said the killing was in response to a film about Islam and domestic violence that Van Gogh had made with the Somalian-born activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then an MP, which showed images of naked veiled women with lines from the Koran projected over them.

From her self-imposed exile in Washington, Hirsi Ali last week criticised the new film as 'provocation' and called on the major Dutch political parties to restart a debate on immigration that has split Dutch society in recent years, rather than leave the field to extremists.

Wilders announced his plans last November, saying he was making a film to show the violent and fascist elements of the Muslim faith. The maverick politician's remarks about Islam have become increasingly radical. In February last year he said that if Muslims wanted to stay in the Netherlands, they should tear out half of the Koran and throw it away. In parliament he then called for the Koran and Hitler's Mein Kampf to be banned, a proposal that was rejected.

Job Cohen, the left-wing mayor of Amsterdam, echoed Hirsi Ali's words and called for a debate 'so that the moderates can make themselves heard'.

During a visit to the European Parliament in Strasbourg last week, Ahmad Badr al-Din Hassoun, the Grand Mufti of Syria, said that, were Wilders was seen to tear up or burn a Koran in his film, 'this will simply mean he is inciting wars and bloodshed ... It is the responsibility of the Dutch people to stop him.'
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2008 06:13 pm
I oppose tearing up books. But tearing up bad ideas isnt bad.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 01:08 am
Via Radio Netherlands: Geert Wilders: Pushing the envelope

Quote:
Two young Dutch journalists experienced the many sides of Geert Wilders while writing a biography of the Dutch politician. It's called 'It can't get much crazier', a phrase Wilders himself often uses during debates.

... ... ...

Author Jonathan van Melle says Wilders is a politician pur sang.
"He loves politics, he can't live without politics. So if the Freedom Party loses all its seats, then Wilders has no life anymore."

Both van Melle and Blok say Wilders fully operates based on a principled belief that what he's advocating is the right thing to do. But they also agree that Wilders knows better than anyone how to communicate those beliefs to a broad audience. So far, Geert Wilders has played his cards very well. If a snap election was called, he would almost certainly get more votes than in the last election. But even for someone who likes pushing the envelope, it can't get much crazier.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 01:12 am
"Constitutional law is supposed to draw borders between what is right and what is wrong in normal human behaviour", writes Christopher Caldwell in the Financial Times.
Quote:
Staged provocations intended to shift such boundaries are sometimes acts of bad faith. ... No right is unimaginable and no tradition too venerable to be revisited. Such cases are artificial, but the law they make is real. Mr Wilders is something of a bogeyman in polite Dutch society now. He should not be. His perfectly legal effort resembles the kind of mischievous testing of boundaries that civil libertarians have engaged in whenever they have sought to hasten social change in the face of an indifferent or hostile electorate.

Financial Times: In defence of the right to offend
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2008 01:50 am
An interview with Geert Wilders in today's Observer:

'I don't hate Muslims. I hate Islam'

Quote:
Where a few years ago the far right in Europe concentrated its fire on immigration, these days Islam is fast becoming the most popular target. It is a campaign that is having mixed results. In Switzerland, the Blocher party has been highly successful. In Holland, Wilders is thriving by constantly poking sticks in the eyes of the politically correct Dutch establishment. But when Susanne Winter ran for a seat on the local council in the Austrian city of Graz last month by branding the Prophet Muhammad a child molester, she lost her far-right Freedom Party votes.

For the mainstream centre-right in Europe, foreigner-bashing is also backfiring. Roland Koch, the German Christian Democrat once tipped as a future Chancellor, wrecked his chances a fortnight ago by forfeiting a 12-point lead in a state election after a campaign that denounced Muslim ritual slaughter practices and called for the deportation of young immigrant criminals.

Wilders echoes some of the arguments against multiculturalism that have convulsed Germany in recent years. Like many on the traditional German right, he wants the European Judaeo-Christian tradition to be formally recognised as the dominating culture, or Leitkultur. 'There is no equality between our culture and the retarded Islamic culture. Look at their views on homosexuality or women,' he says.

But if Wilders shares positions and aims with others on the far right in Europe, he is also a very specific Dutch phenomenon, viewing himself as a libertarian provocateur like the late Pim Fortuyn or Theo van Gogh, railing against 'Islamisation' as a threat to what used to be the easy-going Dutch model of tolerance.

'My allies are not Le Pen or Haider,' he emphasises. 'We'll never join up with the fascists and Mussolinis of Italy. I'm very afraid of being linked with the wrong rightist fascist groups.' Dutch iconoclasm, Scandinavian insistence on free expression, the right to provoke are what drive him, he says.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2008 08:40 am
It will be interesting to see what happens if/when the Wilders film is broadcast.

I tend to agree with him...I dont hate muslims (or any other identifiable group) but I am anti-Islam. (hate is too strong a word). But I object to being classified as "right wing" for saying so.

Just because we had a fight with nazism/fascism did not make me anti Italian or anti German or anti Japanese.

We had a cold war against Communism, the political idea, not against Russians people.

Now we are in an asymetric war against Islamism. The muslims regard themselves as a "nation" and I'm not anti muslim, but I am anti islamism as a set of ideas that are irrational, harmful and just plain stupid.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2008 09:55 am
Well, at least the "mainstream centre-right in Europe" ist (still) a bit different to those extreme right-wings.

And when Wilders says that his allies aren't Le Pen or Haider - he's following their trail.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:29 pm
are all the critics of Islamism from the right/extreme right?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:34 pm
No idea, but those you hear in media: yes.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:46 pm
Quote:
Maryam Namazie: What we are seeing though is a Left, or what is called the Left, actually apologising for Islam, calling any sort of criticism of Islam 'Islamophobic'. We have heard recently that the editor of the Socialist Workers' Party paper has even implied that secularism is Islamophobic!


Its this sort of attitude that I really dont understand. The "left" in my book has always been associated with materialism/marxism/socialism and rejection of organised religion. How they can embrace reactionary backward misogynistic homophobic religion is beyond me.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 03:32 pm
Will Turkey's revision of sacred islamic texts catch on?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7264903.stm
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nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Feb, 2008 02:06 pm
McTag wrote:
Will Turkey's revision of sacred islamic texts catch on?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7264903.stm


Well, nothing has been actually published yet.

But let me ask you a question. Do you hold any skepticism that the final document will conform to the information in this article?

Interesting concept, regardless.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Feb, 2008 02:27 pm
nappyheadedhohoho wrote:
Well, nothing has been actually published yet.


They had declared earlier that a new collection of hadiths, free of misogyny, would be prepared by 2008.



nappyheadedhohoho wrote:
But let me ask you a question. Do you hold any skepticism that the final document will conform to the information in this article?


I've no idea. I didn't follow how and when such declarations were made before by the Diyanet nor could I find infos online (at least not in a language I could read).
But it looks like the mentality of Ataturk still is alive in the mindset of many Turks.

An interesting comment from yesterday's Guardian here
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nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Feb, 2008 02:32 pm
Thanks for the additional articles, Walter.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Feb, 2008 03:41 pm
And from The Guardian today,

Erdogan insists his AK party, in a country that is constitutionally secularist, is a Turkish Muslim equivalent of a European Christian democratic party - traditionalist, conservative, based on religious values, but democratic, tolerant, and liberal. With Spain and the Zapatero government, he is pushing an "Alliance of Civilisations" aimed at a rapprochement between the Muslim and western worlds. After years of fighting the militantly secularist Turkish establishment, he has just succeeded in lifting the ban on Islamic headscarves for girls in higher education. His many opponents decry it as part of Turkey's slide away from secularism down the slippery slope of Islamism.

Sources say the Islamic reform project is so ambitious and so fundamental it will take years to complete, but that it is already paying dividends - abolition of the death penalty, a campaign against honour killings, and the training and appointment of several hundred women as imams.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/27/turkey.islam
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Feb, 2008 11:59 am
So some of the saying of the Hadith about what Mohammed is reputed to have said are themselves wrong. What a joke. Why dont they just junk it all and start again. At least that would be more honest.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Feb, 2008 12:43 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
So some of the saying of the Hadith about what Mohammed is reputed to have said are themselves wrong. What a joke. Why dont they just junk it all and start again. At least that would be more honest.


Because it's religion.

And (from my WP-link above)

Quote:
Hadiths are serious stuff. More than 90 percent of the sharia (Islamic law) is based on them rather than the Koran
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