Anti-Muslim Dutch politicians in hiding after death threats

I read the article Nimh. It was interesting. Thanks for posting it. For up to date Dutch news, you are the man on the spot.

Some are agressive, some are tolerant. There's a powerful groundswell of resentment against immigrants and increasingly, Muslims/Moroccans specifically. But after what is now almost three years of dominance of Fortuynist rhetorics in politics and media, I also detect a kind of counter-resentment, of the "polite people" (christians, progressives) who are getting a bit fed up with all the gung-ho intolerance of the Fortuynist sort. I compiled an overview of political and journalistic reactions to Van Gogh's murder and subsequent events in this post and this post, with the second post focusing on some of the "second thoughts" some people are having. But for sure, the resentment remains a powerful force, and actually comes in many different guises.


No, its true - depending on what you call "extreme".

The extreme right of the kind represented by Michiel Smit in that Danish video JustWonders linked in doesnt seem to have caught fire yet, though there's a growing subculture of young white males coalescing around it. A potential source of extremist disruption but for now not of mass appeal. But take a step or two towards the center and you get to the List Pim Fortuyn and the Group Geert Wilders.

Neither are extreme-right in the ideologized form of, say, Jean Marie Le Pen's Front National in France or even Filip de Winter's Flemish Block. (In fact, any association with the Flemish Block is used to tarnish any party, for example Michiel Smit's, as too extremist.) But the List Fortuyn has of course bolstered a volatile mix of xenophobia and Islamophobia into what otherwise was a near-libertarian, postmodern programme. For gay rights, against immigration. For privatisation, against radical imams. A mix quite specific to Pim Fortuyn, and one that kept extreme-right parties elsewhere from easily accepting him (just like he would get indignant when compared to them). But a tough, outrightly hostile stance against immigration, asylum-seekers and muslims is what his List most definitely shares with them.

The List Fortuyn entered parliament with a whopping 26 seats (out of 150) directly after Pim's pre-election murder in 2002; entered government; and f*cked up, no offence. The government collapsed after a record short term in office, and new elections early this year left the List with just 8 seats. In the opinion polls, they're now down to just 1.

Its place is now taken by Geert Wilders. He's in the Danish video JW posted, so you can get an idea what he's about. Up till early this year, he was in the right-wing liberal VVD, where he made all his political career. A bit of a loner and another nonconformist, confirming that the Dutch far right appears to be a different animal than the (arch)conservative Belgian/French/Austrian brand. He became famous for his uncompromising speeches about the danger of radical muslims, the need to force "allochtones" to integrate, to drastically limit asylum-seekers. In the vid, you can hear him say something along the lines of, "if they dont want to integrate, they should just go home again". Bit difficult that, seeing how most of them were born here, but its the kind of rhetorics that makes him score big.

Nevertheless he is still a different breed than the List Fortuyn, again. As said, he made his career in the VVD, one of the country's three main parties, a classic liberal party, who despite their increasing flirts with anti-immigration sentiment still are mostly known simply as the party of the rich (both the stiff upper lip and the self-made man kind). Wilders has never been seen mingling with any of the usual suspects on the far right, and apart from his stance on immigration/integration he's pretty much in line with the VVD programme. I wouldnt wholly exclude the possibility even of him returning to the fold after a while, depending on the poll numbers.

For now, Wilders' political stock has risen sharply, with his "Group" (which thus far only includes him) boosted from some 7 seats to some 20 seats in the polls within a month of Van Gogh's murder. He seems to have peaked there at the moment though.

I think there's a reliable base of some 5% and a max of 18% for such politics in Holland at the moment.

And yeah, "Pickpockets", too :wink:



That's the sorta stuff I'm talkin' about nimh ... seems to me there's recognition of a problem, but lotsa conflict over what exactly the problem might be, and what to do about it. As I said - I wonder if my impression reflects something real, and, if its real, what it really means. Mebbe I'm seein' somethin' that really ain't there. I've been meanin' to ask you your take on this for a while now - keep gettin' distracted, though. Still, its good to know one source of Dutch angst has been laid to rest - Georgina's prime assets do seem beyond doubt to be real



Excelllent article, and thanks for the effort ... greatly appreciated. Your insight is invaluable, IMO.

Thats a fascinating and most wide-ranging collection of news items, Timber.

But I thought you had specifically referred to "so many, and so many highly visible, perpetrators of [..] a level and sort of violence and disruption wholly foreign to the Dutch psyche and culture."

Now I appreciate your recap of the news of this past month, really - but I dont actually see how any of it makes a case for that assertion of yours.

Dutch resentment, stories of people who want to emigrate, unease about extremist sermons in mosques, the political outrage over Van Gogh's murder and the subsequent violent arrests of Mohammed B.'s fellow-conspirists and oh, yes, pickpocketing in Amsterdam - yep, we've gone through most of that here in this thread, and I havent contested any of it (the only thing I will return to, if I have the time, is that "group rape" report, which was most questionable). But, err, how does any of that involve "so many, and so many highly visible, perpetrators of [..] a level and sort of violence and disruption wholly foreign to the Dutch psyche and culture"? There was just the one murder, right?

Because that's the specific charge I was calling you on ... and another eagle's overview of the world according to Timber doesnt quite cut it, in terms of subtantiating it ... ;-)

I think it sounds like the AEL are setting up a strawman party for the far right to bash.

Thanks. Its cool translating something for here, just a bit of work. And then I get impatient when I think noone noticed - as if, like, anyone owes me to notice! And then I get whiny. Hey, I can be a pretty intolerable chap sometimes. But I know. Still sorry about it though.

<says sorry to everyone>

<no need to reply, "it's OK" or anything>

nimh -
Dunno so much I asserted anything as I observed I had an impression and was seeking opinion relevant thereto. As I said, its an impression I've garnered, it could be wrong, I was lookin' for input. You gave me your input - which indicates to me you think my impression is misfounded. Cool. I'm not sure I agree with me some of the time, and this time it appears you don't agree with me. That might be 2 votes against

I certainly don't have the insight view of an aboriginal like nimh, but from my experience and observation (which derives from feedbacks of Dutch relatives and friends up to frequent visits there), I only can share nimh's views.

Damn ... this vote count thing ain't goin' my way, is it?

It was interesting reading articles from Timber about the exodus from Netherlands because of Immigration. That is the view I get from a lot of Germans who are approaching Retirement. They are saying " We have worked hard all our life and are not going to spend our retirement in a place full of turkish".

The issue of immigration is really an interesting one. I can see both sides. But if a lot of european people are exiting europe(as per timbers article) because of immigration, then this is not a good economic situation. Because you are replacing people with skills and money with people with not much money and without skills. It is simplistic to say this, but this is the worry I have about the future of Europe.

Thanks all you guys for the time you take to post articles. Much appreciated. You should get jobs as foreign correspondents.

Despite what Tmber's Telegraph link would have us believe, the bulk of the emigrants from Holland at the moment still consists of so-called "remigrants" - older Dutch Turks and Moroccans returning to their home country to enjoy their retirement there.

Turkey is the one of the most favourite holiday places for Germany (because it's stiil so cheap), but only a few will live there for retirement: it's still Mallorca, with dozens of German senior residences there.

Retired Turkish - like most others of the former "Gastarbeiter" - went back to their original home countries: you usually could have a better life there with the pension you got than here.

This changes, however, since the second/third generation is German by now.

Walter, in Germany the birth rates are down but child benefits are way up. Is this because of turkish immigrants with 5 or 6 children, claiming benefits?

Oddly, one of the budget cuts the right-wing government is proposing here now is to make pensions dependent on price levels in the country you live in. So if you move to a country where life is much cheaper, after retirement, they want to reduce your pension accordingly. This is odd because this is the same government that keeps going on about how there are too many immigrants who havent integrated well-enough - yet this measure, if implemented, would force many of the first-generation immigrants (who are the least integrated) to stay here instead of going back home.

Child benefits are up? Since when????

The reason that more child benefit is sold nowadays than before is sinlpy that now even those with high income get (and take) it.

Governments will have to cut benefits at some stage. In the next 10 years when all the baby boomers go into retirement, a government won't be able to afford all the pensions and benefits. It is a total waste of money having immigrants come into the country and just go on benefits. If immigrants are sponsored or have a skill to get a job, fair enough, but when they just go on to benefits, it is a wastage of money.

I don't want to discuss this here in general, but it definately doesn' apply on Germany.
(You certainly know from your friends in Bavaria this joke:

what is the differnce between someone from Saxonia and a Turkish citizen? The Turkish can speak German and has got a good job. :wink: .

A front page report in The Independent yesterday reported how over the past twenty years, the average real wages of the British have gone up by as much as 50% - but the real wages of the bottom 10% of the population have not increased at all.

Walter, What is the german version of alice in wonderland?

Fatemah in Aldi.